A Boxer Style Hook

[rockky]

I'm wondering why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo. Any thoughts? It's been used for knockouts. Could it be classified as a vertical inward punch?

 

[IWishToLearn]

I'm thinking it's present in some interpretations of Ed Parker's Kenpo, but I know of two (one being the IKCA, my organization) that don't teach it. SGM Sullivan's theory is that the hook punch has too high a propensity for being blocked - the arm is used in a specific configuration that allows for greater ease in being blocked, that is.

 

[Blindside]

I'm thinking it's present in some interpretations of Ed Parker's Kenpo, but I know of two (one being the IKCA, my organization) that don't teach it. SGM Sullivan's theory is that the hook punch has too high a propensity for being blocked - the arm is used in a specific configuration that allows for greater ease in being blocked, that is.

More so than a forehand or backhand handsword??? I don't think I buy that argument. I use hooks to the body, open hand attacks to the head since I broke my hand (with a hook) on one of my training partner's head.

Lamont

 

[mikjf]

Hi Rockky.. Perhaps the school where you train doesn't teach it.... but the hook punch is a basic taught in the American Kenpo curriculum. Great deceptive punch when used correctly...and could add awareness to proper execution of your extended outward blocks as well. Best of Luck.

 

[JamesB]

well we've got techniques to provide a defence against the hook punch, stands to reason that you need to train this punch in order to understand how the technique works...

 

[ChadWarner]

I'm wondering why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo. Any thoughts? It's been used for knockouts. Could it be classified as a vertical inward punch?

Yes we do..."There are 7 major methods of executing strikes. An 8th categorey consists of specialized methods that deserves a division of its own. The seven major divisions of strikes are methods of, (1) thrusting, (2) whipping, (3). hooking, (4) roundhousing, (5) slicing (6) hammmering (7) clawing." This is an excerp from Infinite insights book 3 page 76.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I've not seen a hook punch in any of the techniques or katas, though it can be inserted into many.

I have noticed that many kenpo schools also have a muay thai or boxing program, so you can learn your hooks and then apply them as needed.

 

[arnisador]

SGM Sullivan's theory is that the hook punch has too high a propensity for being blocked - the arm is used in a specific configuration that allows for greater ease in being blocked, that is.

Well, if a non-Kenpoist can jump in here...the thing is, it can be very hard to pick up that it's a hook vs. a cross (rear-hand hook) or to see it coming from a blind side (front-hand hook). So, before blocking it one must know it's there! That's the big problem with the hook...it can be very deceptive.

That having been side, while I don't find it easy to block per se at full speed because it's hard to pick up on (front hand especially), it isn't so bad to cover it and then work in to a clinch. I don't throw it myself because the body mechanics just don't work so well for me--it's fine for others, I just don't like it--and when I'm in a situation where it might be needed I usually substitute an open-hand hooking slap, which requires less bend of the arm and, for me, more comfortable footwork as I don't come around quite so far with it.

Everyone needs a jab (construed broadly) and a cross (ditto), I believe, but the hook is optional...a good option, but optional.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I've not seen a hook punch in any of the techniques or katas, though it can be inserted into many.

I have noticed that many kenpo schools also have a muay thai or boxing program, so you can learn your hooks and then apply them as needed.

Darting Mace Extension, Menacing Twirl Extension off of the top of my head....

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'm wondering why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo. Any thoughts? It's been used for knockouts. Could it be classified as a vertical inward punch?

We do.

 

[ChadWarner]

I've not seen a hook punch in any of the techniques or katas, though it can be inserted into many.

I have noticed that many kenpo schools also have a muay thai or boxing program, so you can learn your hooks and then apply them as needed.

Triggered salute has an uppercut and so does five swords if you do it that way. Hooks are after the apex of the circle. Theses are vertical examples to the body. The forms have hooking movements in many places.

 

[JamesB]

There is some variation in the exact weapon used, but how about:

Leaping Crane
Tripping Arrow
Blinding Sacrifice (the sandwich part)

I'm sure there's lots more extensions also, KenpoJujisu3 gave a good example already, so how about adding 'Detour from Doom' finish-off into the mix as well?

OTOH

 

[ChadWarner]

There is some variation in the exact weapon used, but how about:

Leaping Crane
Tripping Arrow
Blinding Sacrifice (the sandwich part)

I'm sure there's lots more extensions also, KenpoJujisu3 gave a good example already, so how about adding 'Detour from Doom' finish-off into the mix as well?

OTOH

Blinding Sacrifice... Double hooks to the kidneys after clearing the arms. A hook is a hook, although boxers don't use a hook this way. Who wants to emulate a boxer anyway? Emulate their money into my account- yes me very happy then.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, if a non-Kenpoist can jump in here...the thing is, it can be very hard to pick up that it's a hook vs. a cross (rear-hand hook) or to see it coming from a blind side (front-hand hook). So, before blocking it one must know it's there! That's the big problem with the hook...it can be very deceptive.

Yup, esspecially when you got mixed leads (orthodox vs southpaw) the lead hook becomes a very important tool. Rear hand hooks are less common though, unless you can get really tight.

But I'll be honest, most people that don't box and think they are throwing a boxing style hook tend to butcher it. So I can see why some people might think it has little use.

 

[ChadWarner]

For people who study American Kenpo all angles and paths are applicable. For me I want to have the hook come into play after the person has been set up. This will help to avoid a clinch and have myself put into anothers area of expertise. I would have to say there is a rule of thumb reguarding hooks- When the hands disappear from your view it is coming. Many hours of slow mo freestyle will train this particular type of awareness.

 

[JamesB]

For people who study American Kenpo all angles and paths are applicable. For me I want to have the hook come into play after the person has been set up. This will help to avoid a clinch and have myself put into anothers area of expertise. I would have to say there is a rule of thumb reguarding hooks- When the hands disappear from your view it is coming. Many hours of slow mo freestyle will train this particular type of awareness.

I think if you apply the universal pattern to this kind of thing then I'd definitely agree. I'm interested what you describe as 'the hands disappearing' - you're referring to your opponent's hands, right? I'm imagining this as more a peripheral awareness, right? One moment you'd have a feeling for where your opponent's arms/hands were, the next moment this feeling would be gone, and that's the time you know something's coming in from your flank? Would it be too late by then to do anything about it?

 

[ChadWarner]

I think if you apply the universal pattern to this kind of thing then I'd definitely agree. I'm interested what you describe as 'the hands disappearing' - you're referring to your opponent's hands, right? I'm imagining this as more a peripheral awareness, right? One moment you'd have a feeling for where your opponent's arms/hands were, the next moment this feeling would be gone, and that's the time you know something's coming in from your flank? Would it be too late by then to do anything about it?

Yes the opponents hands. A direct reference to the nine planes found within the U pattern. It happens in an instant, when the opponents hands disappear you must take action. Part sense, part visual (as in set ups and postion recognition) and feel process. It is a part of playing the chess game of combat. In order to use a hook defend against it and know as much of the process as possible. That is a theory. Theory must be trained over and over.

It is too late. Quite frequently without a lot of traing in hooks they land, are powerful and deceptive. If the weapon is compacted and you are using fusion the words "suffer greatly" come to mind. Lateness is exactly when an action doesn't meet another action. Either move in attacking or get a hand up and when the blow lands strike back. It is a bit more detailed than this but also simple if you follow basic AK principles.

Prolly this is a good place to redifine "in order to beet action you must meet action" I can't stress enough the value of training this a thousand times slow.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Yes the opponents hands. A direct reference to the nine planes found within the U pattern. It happens in an instant, when the opponents hands disappear you must take action. Part sense, part visual (as in set ups and postion recognition) and feel process. It is a part of playing the chess game of combat. In order to use a hook defend against it and know as much of the process as possible. That is a theory. Theory must be trained over and over.

It is too late. Quite frequently without a lot of traing in hooks they land, are powerful and deceptive. If the weapon is compacted and you are using fusion the words "suffer greatly" come to mind. Lateness is exactly when an action doesn't meet another action. Either move in attacking or get a hand up and when the blow lands strike back. It is a bit more detailed than this but also simple if you follow basic AK principles.

Prolly this is a good place to redifine "in order to beet action you must meet action" I can't stress enough the value of training this a thousand times slow.

:rofl:

 

[Andrew Green]

The hand should not dissappear from view, people that know how to hook will not punch wide like that, everything will be kept tight.

 

[ChadWarner]

The hand should not dissappear from view, people that know how to hook will not punch wide like that, everything will be kept tight.

Many angles and many versions of hooking. The correct way is the one that lands. I say this because of the many ambiguous people out there that don't use obvious paths. You must remember faints, baiting and the like that experienced combatants may use. Getting clipped in the temple tip of the jaw or maxilary hinge buy something not seen only increases the potential for damage. It doesn't take much for the hands to disappear if you are not paying attention to them along with everything else.