8/12 hard and soft mantis techniques

[7starmantis]

Alright, If I may ask... What is it or how are you striking on the opponents head? I'm visualizing maybe a roundhouse shin kick to the outer thigh (thus dropping his height zone) then delivering a downward punch, inside downward elbow, palm heel, etc. ?
Are the principles in order of priority 1-8 & 1-12?

OK, I'll have to let him answer that question, as our 12 keywords are different as are our 12 soft, 8 hard principles. Our first hard principles is Fan Cha - Rolling Fist. also, there is really no priority or order to our list except maybe in the way you learn them or understand them possibly.

Your correct in your explination but thats only one way to achieve it. Striking downward to the head could be froim a takedown or throw as well. In mantis we do alot of throwing and sweeps while striking or striking while the opponent is falling. Also, you could have yielded to a punch, plucked the attackers arm, thus bringing him/her off balance causing them to fall forward, then the strike would be appropriate.

However, I'm trying to explain his principles, I'll shut up and let him explain it.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

this is off topic but i wanna get it off my chest
super-duper double props to you
exactly
thank you very much
that's what you get when you dont train under the master himself. i.e. that's what you get when you train under an unexperienced black belt teacher.
I trained under an 8-dan TKD master before I swear i learned in 2 months what I am not going to learn in 2 years learning under just a black belt instructor. i got unbelievably fit and flexible but now im only gaining FAT, no offense to my teacher i think he's a great man and a great martial artist, but I NEED TO BE TAUGHT MORE.
you notice that 90% of my mantis knowledge is coming from the internet. even the information my teacher told me was because i got questions from the internet and i asked! i even email those teachers i find online and ask questions. i joined this forum to ask YOU, mr. 7starmantis, questions about my school and my art!
thanks for listening, although it's off-topic

At the risk of going off topic, I understand what your saying. Just remember that its sort of the order of the mantis. In other words, you can't jump in and start doing full contact mantis fighting and expect to pick up the principles and techniques of the system. It takes time and sometimes that time can seem ill-spent. As far as knowledge goes, thats the kung fu way. Its almost that you learn when your ready by asking questions.

I'm glad you are here asking questions, I love to discuss mantis kung fu, but I've learned the exact same way you are, by asking questions. As my knowledge or understanding grows, I allways find more questions to ask. Hang in there, you will get there, it takes a while of basics (sometimes considered boring, especially by beginers who have prior expierience in martial arts) in order to progress on.

Ok, sorry, back on topic....
7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

8 hard ways
2. Punch straight to the opponents face.

Ok, I'm not quite sure how to take this one. Obviously I know what it's trying to say. Is this something accomplished from the get go of the fight? Or maybe, do you guys not use roundhousing, hooking, or hammering techniques? Then again, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

 

[jfarnsworth]

... also, there is really no priority or order to our list except maybe in the way you learn them or understand them possibly.

I'm used to the curriculum that I follow as far as principles put forth in order.
1. Erect Posture - puts everything in line. If you don't have a good base then the other stuff won't be as effective or work for that matter. You just can't fight being off balance.

 

[DBACPhoenix]

Here is a list of the 8 hard ways for 7* Mantis - Lee Kam Wing Lineage:

"Mountain Tai Falls On The Incense Burner" (Chopping Down Motions)
"Punching Straight To The Face" (Straight Forward Motions)
"Advancing Body With Double Palms" (Double Palm Motions)
"Sticking And Elbowing Hard" (Upward and Downward Elbow Breaking Motions)
"Sticking To The Door Leaning Hard" (Ramping Techniques)
"Strike Hard Above And Kick Below" (Illusive Techniques)
"Left and Right Hooking Attacks" (Confusing Techniques)
"Blocking Midline Attacks To The Side Then Chopping" (Midline Defensive
Motions)

I know that the Chuen Luen Lineage is slight different, but very close and if these methods are taken purely on principle, then they can be considered the same.

A few other things that you may want to know about the 8 Hard (Baat Kung) is that each set of techniques have certain attack points. The first of the 8 hard is commonly done with the Fan Cha (as 7* pointed out), which is commonly refered to as hammer fists in other styles. The Fan Cha aims for either the point in between the eyes, the jawbone below the eye, or the clavical (Note: these are the non-lethal attack points). You will never see a hard technique done to a generalized area (head, torso, leg, etc.). Also, during fighting it may be difficult to catagorize hard and soft techniques... The main difference between the two is intent. The intention in hard techniques is vastly different from soft and is the main divide between the two.

To elaborate a little more on what 7* said earlier in regards to the principles Jim (Jeem) and Lim. In our school, one of the most common combinations we show to beginners is Hook, Grab, Punch. These three techniques are simple to demonstrate and teach, but the principles that are invovled become much more difficult to visualize for most beginner students.

If you do not know, this combo consists of intercepting an incoming punch with a mantis hook, grabbing the intercepted arm to maintain contact, and striking with the hand that originally intercepted the attack.

This combination demonstrates Au (hook), Lau (grapple), Tsai (pluck/strike), Dil (intercept), Jim (Contact), and others depending on how the techniques are completed (and the principles invovled in the lineage). Yet only the first three are emphisized for the techniques since most students corellate a single action as a single principle.

Now I have begun to run off on a rant...

I'll check by here more often now that I see there are those seeking good discussion!

Phoenix

 

[jfarnsworth]

"Advancing Body With Double Palms" (Double Palm Motions)

I'm kinda curious about this above statement. Wouldn't it "generally" hurt the effectiveness of a technique to step forward with both hands to execute a double palm strike? The only way I can visualize using this is if the attacker came in deep and fast using his forward momentum to help the effectiveness of your strikes. I'm not a mantis person but I am down from the kung-fu line. Help me understand how you use this properly. :asian:

If you do not know, this combo consists of intercepting an incoming punch with a mantis hook, grabbing the intercepted arm to maintain contact, and striking with the hand that originally intercepted the attack.

I was taught this as well and it's a good technique. I'm not sure about the mantis hand as I was taught using a crane hand :idunno: . To further explain in detail about the weapon destruction we use. If the right punch comes in I would left hand parry then hook towards the wrist while executing a right vertical upward back knuckle punch to the right tricep. Next would be circle clockwise w/right hand ontop of right bicep, slide down towards wrist then execute a left vertical inward elbow strike against the right elbow. After that the left hand would slide down the right arm (sliding check) as my right hand would employ a right vertical punch to the face. Close to the same thing you do?

 

[7starmantis]

I'm kinda curious about this above statement. Wouldn't it "generally" hurt the effectiveness of a technique to step forward with both hands to execute a double palm strike? The only way I can visualize using this is if the attacker came in deep and fast using his forward momentum to help the effectiveness of your strikes. I'm not a mantis person but I am down from the kung-fu line. Help me understand how you use this properly. :asian:

Well, in my limited experience I would say your correct to a point. I wouldn't say it would "hurt" the effectiveness to step forward. In fact, stepping forward could give you a much more effective strike. In mantis we do alot of strikes in connection with "catching their center" or controling their balance. A double palm strike could do just that, especially if its a high and a low strike at the same time. Remember we aren't saying its an initial attack with both hands, its going to be after contact has been made more than likely. Using the opponants energy to increase the effectiveness of the strike is a good thing, but its not the only way to use the principle. I think I'm not quite understanding your question.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

By the way, I'm much more knowledgeable of the 12 Soft Principles as that is what I'm spending most of my time on currently in my training.

 

[mantis]

By the way, I'm much more knowledgeable of the 12 Soft Principles as that is what I'm spending most of my time on currently in my training.

let me please ask you this then: what is "diau" in mantisfgtr's number 5. "5. After your straight strike is blocked by an opponents arm, hook and control using diau." I havent been to class in like a month, but i guess I can learn online now

 

[7starmantis]

let me please ask you this then: what is "diau" in mantisfgtr's number 5. "5. After your straight strike is blocked by an opponents arm, hook and control using diau." I havent been to class in like a month, but i guess I can learn online now

Mantisfgtr's list is a bit different from the one our lineage uses, I'm sure the principles conveyed are the same, but in our list #5 would be:
Using dil sau to difuse enemies attack.

I assume that his use of the word "diau" refers to the hooking dil sau motion, but I'll have to let him answer that. It even might be that a typo was made making "dilsau" become diau?

7sm

 

[DBACPhoenix]

I'm kinda curious about this above statement. Wouldn't it "generally" hurt the effectiveness of a technique to step forward with both hands to execute a double palm strike? The only way I can visualize using this is if the attacker came in deep and fast using his forward momentum to help the effectiveness of your strikes. I'm not a mantis person but I am down from the kung-fu line. Help me understand how you use this properly. :asian:

I agree with 7sm on this one. While direct interpretation of the technique would seem that it is an attack that has no regard for keeping the opponent in check, it must be remembered that the hard methods usually develop from success with the soft. To 7sm's point about dil sau, if the enemies attack is diffused and your advance into your attack puts you on the inside of your enemy (between the arms) then this attack is extremely effective. Also, note that this does not always have to happen the same way. An attack passed to the side that allows one to reposition behind to opponent can easily be seen as an advantage for this technique. I hope this helps explain things better...

I was taught this as well and it's a good technique. I'm not sure about the mantis hand as I was taught using a crane hand :idunno: . To further explain in detail about the weapon destruction we use. If the right punch comes in I would left hand parry then hook towards the wrist while executing a right vertical upward back knuckle punch to the right tricep. Next would be circle clockwise w/right hand ontop of right bicep, slide down towards wrist then execute a left vertical inward elbow strike against the right elbow. After that the left hand would slide down the right arm (sliding check) as my right hand would employ a right vertical punch to the face. Close to the same thing you do?

I understand what you are getting at here and it is slightly different from what I described, but still has employs techniques from other common combinations that we train. The technique I described would be more like if you grabbed the arm instead of punching it, followed by a strike to the face with the left. The added arm break goes into other principles that are used such as "Tip", which is to tag (there are many ways to execute this principle), which you actually seem to do twice (punch to tricep/elbow arm break). Aside from this, it is similar. Phoenix

 

[jfarnsworth]

I agree with 7sm on this one. While direct interpretation of the technique would seem that it is an attack that has no regard for keeping the opponent in check, it must be remembered that the hard methods usually develop from success with the soft. To 7sm's point about dil sau, if the enemies attack is diffused and your advance into your attack puts you on the inside of your enemy (between the arms) then this attack is extremely effective. Also, note that this does not always have to happen the same way. An attack passed to the side that allows one to reposition behind to opponent can easily be seen as an advantage for this technique. I hope this helps explain things better...

I get what you are doing now. I read more into it as you were advancing while still fighting with your opponent. If I would have thought about it more a little in depth it just makes sense to to leave the attacker w/o any fight left . My next question about this would be are you attacking the centerline with your two strikes simultaneously? It appears as though you would get a better reaction with 2 strikes on a vertical plane vs. a horizontal one.

I understand what you are getting at here and it is slightly different from what I described, but still has employs techniques from other common combinations that we train. The technique I described would be more like if you grabbed the arm instead of punching it, followed by a strike to the face with the left. The added arm break goes into other principles that are used such as "Tip", which is to tag (there are many ways to execute this principle), which you actually seem to do twice (punch to tricep/elbow arm break). Aside from this, it is similar

I'm sure there's quite a bit that can be inserted from the hub bud drills or the chi sao form of fighting. Too many people want to speed up and miss the important parts of the finesse of techniques. Good typing with 'ya.

 

[7starmantis]

My next question about this would be are you attacking the centerline with your two strikes simultaneously? It appears as though you would get a better reaction with 2 strikes on a vertical plane vs. a horizontal one.

Well, its not neccessarily all centerline. That is one principles or technique mantis doesnt 'over emphasise. Centerline is great, but mantis people usually know how to control or move their own center thus masking theri true "center". Centerline may not produce the same affect on a mantis person as it would someone else. Attacking with both strikes on different plains really mixes it up!

The question of verticle vs horizontal....The answer to this is really, both. The idea of striking on a verticle plain as I mentioned before (low and high) is not only to make it much harder to block or evade both attacks, but also its much easier to control their center. However, striking on the horizontal plain isn't neccessarily bad. Some of the core principles we use are about controling the opponents center of balance. To attack with two strikes on a horizontal plain also makes it tough to yield or move out of the way of the attack. In reality its just two different usages for different situations.

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

12 Soft ways
1. withdraw hands when encountering a rigid movement by opponent.

Ok, Mr. 7*

I'm lost on this one. I'm not quite sure what a ridgid movement is. I'm guessing a punch(ing combination). Is this withdraw hands off of an opponent while being attacked?

 

[jfarnsworth]

The question of verticle vs horizontal....The answer to this is really, both. The idea of striking on a verticle plain as I mentioned before (low and high) is not only to make it much harder to block or evade both attacks, but also its much easier to control their center. However, striking on the horizontal plain isn't neccessarily bad. Some of the core principles we use are about controling the opponents center of balance. To attack with two strikes on a horizontal plain also makes it tough to yield or move out of the way of the attack. In reality its just two different usages for different situations.

Do you find it difficult to produce a lot of power while striking in two places at the same time? I've been taught by both of my martial arts instructors to not strike the same zone or plane at the same time. Reason being is that it diminishes any type of power. However now that I've been exposed to Kenpo & knowing how to use back up mass (as we call it) I might be able to figure out how to generate a little more umph I just can't figure it out. Now I understand though you and your instructor have differences and probably can do it well and this is something that is probably best done hands on rather than written text but that's all we have.

 

[7starmantis]

Ok, Mr. 7*

I'm lost on this one. I'm not quite sure what a ridgid movement is. I'm guessing a punch(ing combination). Is this withdraw hands off of an opponent while being attacked?

This one will be hard to explain Its what we refer to as "collapsing".
A punch(ing combination) could most deffinitely be a "rigid movement". However, take it way beyond that. A block from you could be a "rogod movement" as well, if you block hard enough to "push" my hnad in any certain direction. To withdraw the hands is to collapse them in starting at the fingers, wrist, elbow, etc... This allows for you to draw them in closer for an attack. Collapsing at the elbow can allow for a really powerful elbow attack.

It is deffinitely not withdrawign off the opponent. We dont loose contact, so withdrawing the hands will transfer contact to another part of the body.

That make sense?

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

It is deffinitely not withdrawign off the opponent. We dont loose contact, so withdrawing the hands will transfer contact to another part of the body.

Which is why you guys "stick" to your opponent a lot?

I think I get the idea behind this.

A block from you could be a "rogod movement" as well, if you block hard enough to "push" my hnad in any certain direction. To withdraw the hands is to collapse them in starting at the fingers, wrist, elbow, etc... This allows for you to draw them in closer for an attack.

I would probably refer to that as checking or canceling a zone of the opponent. Although if I checked off an attackers width zone you better believe that I'm going to start beating on their body fairly quickly.

 

[7starmantis]

Do you find it difficult to produce a lot of power while striking in two places at the same time? I've been taught by both of my martial arts instructors to not strike the same zone or plane at the same time. Reason being is that it diminishes any type of power. However now that I've been exposed to Kenpo & knowing how to use back up mass (as we call it) I might be able to figure out how to generate a little more umph I just can't figure it out. Now I understand though you and your instructor have differences and probably can do it well and this is something that is probably best done hands on rather than written text but that's all we have.

Not really. I mean sure its not going to be the same as a winding up "bubba punch" or anything, but we really dont use that type of power generation anyway. Alot of it is getting lower than your opponent or catching their center. If you have their center then you really dont need all that much power to throw them off balance or even throw them down. In mantis not all of our attacks are meant to do ultimate damage, some are meant to disrupt the opponent and then offer the damaging attacks (notice attacks not attack, we attack continually and agressively until they are either out of commision or they have "stolen" our attack and turned it back on us). Yes, its much easier to grasp "hands on". However, using circular movement to generate the power, a two handed attack can contain quite a bit of power. It involves, for example, shifting your body from say horse stance to forward stance as the two strikes make contact. Its all in the transition of stance. Trying to simply use arm (muscle) strength to generate power in a two handed strike will probably not give you much power.

Which is why you guys "stick" to your opponent a lot?

I think I get the idea behind this.

Yes, exactly. The "sticking" is multi purposed, but yes, thats one reason.

I would probably refer to that as checking or canceling a zone of the opponent. Although if I checked off an attackers width zone you better believe that I'm going to start beating on their body fairly quickly.

OK, I gotcha, I think we are the same plain here. The best example I can give is if I threw a straight punch and you blocked it towards the outside. You block would hit my arm about at my own forearm or so. I would then Allow the part of my arm from my elbow down (towards my fingers) relax and move the way in which your block pushes it. However, since my arm is folding at the elbow, the elbow falls inward to strike.

And yes, attacking very quickly and aggressively is needed in this type of situation.

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

12 Soft ways
2. After contact with opponents blocking arm, circle around and strike straight inward..

Ok, now that I have time again.

In this instance are you using the same hands or opposite hands? Like block/strike same arm or block and then strike with the opposite? Linear strikes vs. circular strikes why do you favor one over the other in this principle? If circling why not continue circling?

 

[7starmantis]

The set we use, words them a bit different. Basically we use:
Yup Sau Yee Tau Sau - Blocking strike quickly and returning strike.

This would be using the same hand, blocking say with the inside of the forearm out (palm facing you) then striking quickly inward with the same hand. In reality you are finishing the circle, its just a very small circle. The outward block starts the circle and then your waist yields to finish the circle and send the attack back towards the opponent.

7sm