8/12 hard and soft mantis techniques

[mantisfgtr]

i would say one could certainly use it as a fighting stance depending on the conflict. The top of the body, in the intercept hands position is really a couple of joint locks in application... I doubt I would use it as a primary fighing stance, however given the chance, i would not pass up the opportunity to jerk mo opponent off his feet with the arm lock...

 

[mantisfgtr]

i would say one could certainly use it as a fighting stance depending on the conflict. The top of the body, in the intercept hands position is really a couple of joint locks in application... I doubt I would use it as a primary fighing stance, however given the chance, i would not pass up the opportunity to jerk my opponent off his feet with the arm lock...

 

[mantis]

i would say one could certainly use it as a fighting stance depending on the conflict. The top of the body, in the intercept hands position is really a couple of joint locks in application... I doubt I would use it as a primary fighing stance, however given the chance, i would not pass up the opportunity to jerk my opponent off his feet with the arm lock...

i was reading about 8step preying mantis today (www.8step.com) and the master there was saying they do depend on this stance as an essential fighting stance. their stances are pretty interesting and very similar to 7* mantis.
as for the 7 starstance where you have your foot up, the one that doesnt carry weight, you use it to trap and hook peeps.

 

[7starmantis]

Its a fighting stance, the arm positioning is a arm bar, or joint attack, but its not neccessarily a starting or stopping position. Mantis really doesn't have a defined "fighting" position. Most the time we use cat stance it is either leading to a kick, or creating a false distance. Its used quite a bit in chin na and joint locks.

Oh, one other thing, the "mantis catches cicada" doesn't neccessarily have to applied in cat stance.

7sm

 

[mantisfgtr]

7 star mantis-just curious, where did you get your seven star mantis training?

 

[7starmantis]

7 star mantis-just curious, where did you get your seven star mantis training?

I'm a student of Sifu Brandon Jones in Tyler, Texas. He is a student of Raymond Fogg out of Dallas.

Mind if I ask you?

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

What is the 7 star praying mantis? Why 7? How does this style differ from a regular praying mantis style? :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

What is the 7 star praying mantis? Why 7? How does this style differ from a regular praying mantis style? :asian:

Well, there really is no "regular praying mantis style". There are many styles of mantis (wah lum, 7*, 8 step, Tai Chi, etc) but they all differ in some way. Some would say the difference is small, some would say its great. It all depends on how your looking at it. In contrast to other system the difference is small between the mantis styles, in contrast with a deep understanding of the principles of one mantis system, the differences can be great. As far as "regular" goes, probably the most well known is either 7* or wah lum.

There are many tales of why the name is "7 star". Some say the mantis that the creator caught had seven "stars" on its back, probably the most accepted is that he wanted the "descendent" or those who practice the style to be as wide reaching as those who can look up and see the "big dipper". While still others interpret the 7 stars to mean "constantly moving and changing to wear down your opponent".

That answer your question at all?

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

That all sounds reasonable. :asian:

I would like to get into the principles next.

 

[7starmantis]

That all sounds reasonable. :asian:

I would like to get into the principles next.

You mean the differences between the principels of the mantis systems?

I dont knwo enough about the core principels of other mantis system to really do much of it justice, I can help with 7* and maybe wah lum, but thats about it.

7sm

 

[mantis]

That all sounds reasonable. :asian:

I would like to get into the principles next.

excuse my intrusion...
but maybe this helps http://shaolin.com/n_mantis_martialarts.aspx
i think, principles like kicking low, stayin in a very close range from your oponent, making sure you always grab the hands of the oponent before you hit, taking your oponent out of balance, keeping your center of gravity lower than your oponent, twisting your hands as you finish hitting to get out of locks... these are all mantis principles shared by all styles.
I was told that 7* pray mantis is unique because they stand tall, meaning they dont go as low as wushu or northern shaolin mantis, and we trip as we pluck.
maybe 7starmantis has more, or different set of principles, or he might even not agree with me at all. well, he's the man when it comes to 7*

i wanna add some more references that i read before i joined my school:
http://authentickungfu.com/
http://www.mantiskungfu.com/

 

[7starmantis]

excuse my intrusion...
but maybe this helps http://shaolin.com/n_mantis_martialarts.aspx
i think, principles like kicking low, stayin in a very close range from your oponent, making sure you always grab the hands of the oponent before you hit, taking your oponent out of balance, keeping your center of gravity lower than your oponent, twisting your hands as you finish hitting to get out of locks... these are all mantis principles shared by all styles.
I was told that 7* pray mantis is unique because they stand tall, meaning they dont go as low as wushu or northern shaolin mantis, and we trip as we pluck.
maybe 7starmantis has more, or different set of principles, or he might even not agree with me at all. well, he's the man when it comes to 7*

First, I wouldn't say I'm the man when it comes to 7* or mantis, or even kung fu in general!! I'm just a lowly student on my journey But thanks :asian:

Ok, I disagree with the presented sites discussion of 7*'s footwork, but agree with some other points. I think its important to realize that most mantis styles are going to be pretty similar. In fact, reading the list of differences from that site, I can see all of them in my training. Different styles of mantis will probably all contain the same principles, what makes them different is that one "style" may train heavily or place more importance on one (or a few) of the principles while another "style" may choose different principels for extensive training. That, in my opinion is the main differences from a general standpoint. In fact, within 7* there are many, many differences in families (or lineages). I think my lineage or family is probably very different from most 7* schools in our focus of "soft" skills, lower stances, and heavy body conditioning. That dosen't mean we ignore other principles, we just seem to really focus on these quite a bit. Jeem Lim is probably the most trained principle at our school, the ability to "stick" or stay in contact with your opponent and feel his movements from that contact.

OK, now I'm getting off track!

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

You mean the differences between the principels of the mantis systems?

I meant the ones listed above.

 

[jfarnsworth]

i think, principles like kicking low, stayin in a very close range from your oponent, making sure you always grab the hands of the oponent before you hit, taking your oponent out of balance, keeping your center of gravity lower than your oponent, twisting your hands as you finish hitting to get out of locks... these are all mantis principles shared by all styles.

I don't know if I would necessarily group that as a principle as I would more as a saying. Good points just a different perspective. To each his own I'm just trying to get some info. from you mantis guys. I also, agree 7* star seems to be on the ball and I'm waiting for when he tells me to quit picking his brain.

 

[mantis]

I don't know if I would necessarily group that as a principle as I would more as a saying. Good points just a different perspective. To each his own I'm just trying to get some info. from you mantis guys. I also, agree 7* star seems to be on the ball and I'm waiting for when he tells me to quit picking his brain.

thank you for pointing out that im a newbie
and rubbing it in my face haha
yah, i only have little experience, less than 6 months!
but that's what i hear in class... sorry for my intrusion again

 

[clfsean]

Some friendly advice...


Be careful with what you read on the net. There are lots who claim to know lots or everything about topics when they actually know less than a little on those very topics.

 

[7starmantis]

thank you for pointing out that im a newbie
and rubbing it in my face haha
yah, i only have little experience, less than 6 months!
but that's what i hear in class... sorry for my intrusion again

Haha, thats ok, no intrusion at all!

Yes, I was just about to post when I saw your reply. In my own experience, the principles tend to grow, or become more complex as my understanding and skill grows. When I was a beginner I would have sworn to you that a major principles of the mantis system is kicking low....now however (not that I'm much more knowledgeable or highly skilled) I would say its a characteristic, but not really a principle. I think one of the major problems with mantis today (and probably alot of MA styles) is people not understanding principles and trying to make them techniques. For example:
We do a dil sau drill where we stand mirrored of each other and one person punches while the other yields, turns his body and creates a cross body chin na, or arm bar. Then, from that position, he strikes at the opponent thus allowing the opponent to do the same thing to him. This goes back and forth. This drill helps to learn Jeem Lim, or sticking. Basically feeling when your opponent lets go of your hand and "riding" his arm back into a grab of your own.
Now, if you ask some mantis people to explain to you Jeem Lim, they will glady set you up and teach you this drill. "There, that is Jeem Lim". However, that is simply one small technque that uses the principle of Jeem Lim and help you to learn it. Jeem Lim could be done with your legs, shins, forearms, etc. Does that make any sense at all? I guess I'm trying to say that principles govern how you fight, but do not determine your technqiues per se.
See what you have done, I've gone off on another rabbit chase!

Ok, so basically I'm saying that there are both characterisitcs of mantis and principels of mantis. Take the principle of Jeem Lim (obviously one of my favorites!). OK, as a characteristic showing Jeem Lim, we see mantis people intercepting a punch and riding it back into a grab. We see mantis people intercepting a punch without force of a block and following the arm into an attack of their own. These are characteristics of that principle. However, the principle itself is not contained by those examples. We practice jeem lim drills with our feet, shins, knees, thighs, hips, buttocks, back, stomach, chest, arms, shoulders, upper back, even our head!! The principle is simply making contact, and riding their power. This could be directing it into an attack of your own, or riding their withdrawal into an attack, or a myriad of other things.

Am I making sense?

7sm

 

[mantis]

Haha, thats ok, no intrusion at all!

Yes, I was just about to post when I saw your reply. In my own experience, the principles tend to grow, or become more complex as my understanding and skill grows. When I was a beginner I would have sworn to you that a major principles of the mantis system is kicking low....now however (not that I'm much more knowledgeable or highly skilled) I would say its a characteristic, but not really a principle. I think one of the major problems with mantis today (and probably alot of MA styles) is people not understanding principles and trying to make them techniques. For example:
We do a dil sau drill where we stand mirrored of each other and one person punches while the other yields, turns his body and creates a cross body chin na, or arm bar. Then, from that position, he strikes at the opponent thus allowing the opponent to do the same thing to him. This goes back and forth. This drill helps to learn Jeem Lim, or sticking. Basically feeling when your opponent lets go of your hand and "riding" his arm back into a grab of your own.
Now, if you ask some mantis people to explain to you Jeem Lim, they will glady set you up and teach you this drill. "There, that is Jeem Lim". However, that is simply one small technque that uses the principle of Jeem Lim and help you to learn it. Jeem Lim could be done with your legs, shins, forearms, etc. Does that make any sense at all? I guess I'm trying to say that principles govern how you fight, but do not determine your technqiues per se.
See what you have done, I've gone off on another rabbit chase!

Ok, so basically I'm saying that there are both characterisitcs of mantis and principels of mantis. Take the principle of Jeem Lim (obviously one of my favorites!). OK, as a characteristic showing Jeem Lim, we see mantis people intercepting a punch and riding it back into a grab. We see mantis people intercepting a punch without force of a block and following the arm into an attack of their own. These are characteristics of that principle. However, the principle itself is not contained by those examples. We practice jeem lim drills with our feet, shins, knees, thighs, hips, buttocks, back, stomach, chest, arms, shoulders, upper back, even our head!! The principle is simply making contact, and riding their power. This could be directing it into an attack of your own, or riding their withdrawal into an attack, or a myriad of other things.

Am I making sense?

7sm

this is off topic but i wanna get it off my chest
super-duper double props to you
exactly
thank you very much
that's what you get when you dont train under the master himself. i.e. that's what you get when you train under an unexperienced black belt teacher.
I trained under an 8-dan TKD master before I swear i learned in 2 months what I am not going to learn in 2 years learning under just a black belt instructor. i got unbelievably fit and flexible but now im only gaining FAT, no offense to my teacher i think he's a great man and a great martial artist, but I NEED TO BE TAUGHT MORE.
you notice that 90% of my mantis knowledge is coming from the internet. even the information my teacher told me was because i got questions from the internet and i asked! i even email those teachers i find online and ask questions. i joined this forum to ask YOU, mr. 7starmantis, questions about my school and my art!
thanks for listening, although it's off-topic

 

[jfarnsworth]

1.thank you for pointing out that im a newbie and rubbing it in my face haha
2. yah, i only have little experience, less than 6 months!
3. but that's what i hear in class... sorry for my intrusion again

1. We are all beginners just some more advaced than others.
2. Well you have more than I do. There isn't an animal kung-fu style around these parts... period.
3. No intrusion. I'm actually kinda enjoying the conversation here on MT for a change. I'm the loner in here. (ducks for cover)

 

[jfarnsworth]

8 hard ways
1. Striking downward on the opponents head.

Alright, If I may ask... What is it or how are you striking on the opponents head? I'm visualizing maybe a roundhouse shin kick to the outer thigh (thus dropping his height zone) then delivering a downward punch, inside downward elbow, palm heel, etc. ?
Are the principles in order of priority 1-8 & 1-12?