6th graders may get birth control pills in school?

[Kacey]

Unlike any of you, I suspect, I have prosecuted child molesters. So please don't patronize me with the "I don't imagine" stuff.... No sir, I don't imagine, I don't need to - because I have seen the real thing.

Prosecuted? No. Reported for mental/emotional/physical/sexual abuse... quite a few, I'm sorry to say. Kids will tell teachers all sorts of things.

There's another side of this, which I haven't seen mentioned, and that is the sexual exploitation of (too) young girls. Men have all sorts of pressure tactics to coerce girls into bed. How the Hell do you all know "the girl would do it anyway"? More likely. if some people would step up and be parents and 'school nurses', they'd react with, " He said/did WHAT to try to get you to sleep with him?"....... and teach the young girl she's way too valuable to be exploited like that.

That's a nice thought... but our school nurse has 14 schools to cover, and shows up perhaps 1 time every 2-3 weeks; the health aide is a nice lady, but she's a paraprofessional who's taken extra training so she can hand out medication as prescribed by a doctor - other than that, she can use antiseptic soap, bandaids, take temperatures, and call home - and that's all she's allowed to do; she's not a nurse or even a nurse's aide - she's a member of the classified staff with 3 hours of training in how to be a health aide. I'm not putting her down - she does the best she can with the training and experience she's got - but she is most decidedly not a nurse.

The day standing up for the rights of preteens not to be sexually and illegally exploited is "distorted values" is the day I hope to die.

Can't really argue with that one.

 

[MJS]

You're making an assumption that it's "two teens" having sex. Most often in my experience, its a significantly older boy.... and sixth and seventh grade girls are commonly preteens, way below the legal age of consent.

And you're making an assumption that its going to be an older person. While that may be the case in your experience, it may not be the case across the board.

Instead of pharmaceuticals and devices, why don't we instead provide them good guidance? How about female counselors to assure them they need not give in to slick lines, they need not be pressured into becoming 11 year old sexploitation objects. Anybody else think their daughters are worth just a little more than that?

Well sir, if you go back and read some of my posts, you will see that I have said that proper education is important.

 

[grydth]

What, exactly, do you consider "proper education"? Does it include the counselling I cited? Simple sex education - or maybe individual counselling tailored to support and protect these underage girls

No, I am not assuming the ages of the participants... because its wrong and needs to be discouraged whether the male having sex with the sixth grade girl is 11, 21, 51 or 101. I am saying that girls who are 10 or 11 should not be having sex with anybody.

There are reasons legislatures set ages of consent - think about what those might be. Could it be a societal judgment that 11 year old girls are way too young to decide this, to understand the grave consequences?

A society which meets a young girl in this situation with simply giving her pills is a failing society. As for your prior, "better to have and not need...", well that's dandy when speaking of an adult having a firearm to use in legitimate self defense... it loses some luster when one speaks of equiping preteens to engage in dangerous and illegal conduct.

 

[MJS]

What, exactly, do you consider "proper education"? Does it include the counselling I cited? Simple sex education - or maybe individual counselling tailored to support and protect these underage girls

IMO, I think a group class would be more productive than trying to fit in every teen girl in the entire school into seperate sessions. Education on diseases would be a good start. I think the responsibilities of being a parent and having a child are important as well. I'm willing to bet kids don't realize what having a baby entails. I also think that the discussion of safe sex and the methods available are important as well.

No, I am not assuming the ages of the participants... because its wrong and needs to be discouraged whether the male having sex with the sixth grade girl is 11, 21, 51 or 101. I am saying that girls who are 10 or 11 should not be having sex with anybody.

And its wrong to smoke and drink, but I'd be willing to bet if you went to the local middle school, you'd be surprised at the number that do both.

There are reasons legislatures set ages of consent - think about what those might be. Could it be a societal judgment that 11 year old girls are way too young to decide this, to understand the grave consequences?

A society which meets a young girl in this situation with simply giving her pills is a failing society. As for your prior, "better to have and not need...", well that's dandy when speaking of an adult having a firearm to use in legitimate self defense... it loses some luster when one speaks of equiping preteens to engage in dangerous and illegal conduct.

I'm watching the news right now. Looks like they passed that bill approving the distribution of the pills.

As for the comment of mine you made reference to, illegal or not, as I said, and I know you probably cringe every time I say it, but kids are going to do this sooner or later. We can preach until we're blue in the face, but we can't know every move our child does. We can do our best to educate them, teach them right from wrong, etc. and hope for the best.

 

[grydth]

Yeah, well that "sooner or later" looms very large in this dicussion. There is an enormous difference between too soon - an 11 year old girl - and 'later' - a young woman who can make an informed and intelligent decision about whether to consent to sex.

I've met an awful lot of women who've paid dreadful prices for acts committed early in life. A lot of these women wonder what they could have been and have very low self esteem. Protecting that sixth grade girl at 11 will yield a stronger, more confident 21 year old woman... and maybe it'll teach a few boys that she's worth more than a quick roll in the back seat.

Every girl - and boy, too - should have counselling available. Just making pills available pushes them towards the wrong choice. Can't we do better?

I'm not talking about preaching, I'm talking about teaching... and protecting until the young ones can learn and then decide for themselves.

 

[MJS]

Yeah, well that "sooner or later" looms very large in this dicussion. There is an enormous difference between too soon - an 11 year old girl - and 'later' - a young woman who can make an informed and intelligent decision about whether to consent to sex.

You're right, it does loom large. IMO though, I think we need to be able to seperate fantasy land from reality. Sure, we all wish that kids would wait to do this or that..reality, unfortunately many don't. We can all wish for the world to be a better place. Sadly, I don't think it'll happen.

I've met an awful lot of women who've paid dreadful prices for acts committed early in life. A lot of these women wonder what they could have been and have very low self esteem. Protecting that sixth grade girl at 11 will yield a stronger, more confident 21 year old woman... and maybe it'll teach a few boys that she's worth more than a quick roll in the back seat.

And I'm sure or would hope that proper education would've prevented some mistakes. Maybe if that 15 yr old girl who had sex with her boyfriend who never seems to be around, used a condom, she wouldn't be stuck with a child, when shes a child herself, and you and I and the rest of the world wouldn't be paying to support it.

Every girl - and boy, too - should have counselling available. Just making pills available pushes them towards the wrong choice. Can't we do better?

I'm not talking about preaching, I'm talking about teaching... and protecting until the young ones can learn and then decide for themselves.

And we educate kids on the dangers of smoking. We, unfortunately, see young people light up though.

 

[Kacey]

Yeah, well that "sooner or later" looms very large in this dicussion. There is an enormous difference between too soon - an 11 year old girl - and 'later' - a young woman who can make an informed and intelligent decision about whether to consent to sex.

I've met an awful lot of women who've paid dreadful prices for acts committed early in life. A lot of these women wonder what they could have been and have very low self esteem. Protecting that sixth grade girl at 11 will yield a stronger, more confident 21 year old woman... and maybe it'll teach a few boys that she's worth more than a quick roll in the back seat.

Every girl - and boy, too - should have counselling available. Just making pills available pushes them towards the wrong choice. Can't we do better?

I'm not talking about preaching, I'm talking about teaching... and protecting until the young ones can learn and then decide for themselves.

I'll say it again: this is not the school's responsibility - certainly, it is not the school's sole responsibility. Teachers are supposed to teach academics - that is what schools were originally intended to do. Should teachers demonstrate moral values? Of course they should. Should schools provide medical care for students who could not otherwise access it? It's a nice concept - but the school I'm at doesn't have a nurse, just a health aide, who had 3 hours (!?!) of training in how to pass out medication. Who is going to examine these girls? Who is going to perform their annual exams? Who is going to monitor if they are taking the pill daily as they should? Watch for side effects? Ensure they are taught to use barrier methods to reduce the risk of disease transmission?

Students spend an average of 13% of their waking time in school - when did the schools become responsible for what those students do with the remaining 87%?

Schools exist to teach - not preach, not medicate. Parents are constantly approaching me, as special education teacher, to diagnose medical conditions in their children: ADD/ADHD, autism, dyslexia, etc. - but I am not a doctor - I cannot diagnose medical conditions. That was pounded into me during my teachers' certification program: my job is to help students work within and around their academic/social/emotional difficulties, not diagnose them from a medical perspective. When, then, did schools become eligible to prescribe and dispense medications?

Health care centers on school grounds - for the convenience of parents and students who do not have health care - not a problem. But it should be clear from the instant such a program is conceived that it is not part of the school - like the mental health services offered on the school grounds by our local county mental health program, this should be - if anything - a program offered on the school grounds by an outside provider - NOT a school service, and most definitely NOT a replacement for proper parenting.

Too many people are willing to abrogate their responsibilities as parents, as employees, as members of society in general - to the schools, to law enforcement, and so on. If you dislike a trend within society, by all means, stand up and protest it! But please, quit placing the responsibility on the schools, the police, the firefighters - anyone but those who should be responsible.

"It takes a village" is trite... it's been over-media-ized... it's become a catchphrase rather than the truism that it should be - nonetheless, it is the community's responsibility as a whole - not that of a part of the community that has already had every other social ill dumped on it, to the extent that its original purpose has been subsumed into parenting those whose parents cannot be bothered to do so themselves.

Sorry for the rant - but I just spent 7 1/2 hours at parent/teacher conferences over the last 2 days - as the teacher - so that I could talk to 6 parents... none of them parents of children who have behavioral problems in school (as a special education teacher, they all have academic difficulties); rather, they were all parents of children who work hard, help their children with their school work as best they can, and most of all - pay attention to their kids... not the parents of the kids who run wild outside the school and think that they can run wild within it as well.

 

[grydth]

You're right, it does loom large. IMO though, I think we need to be able to seperate fantasy land from reality. Sure, we all wish that kids would wait to do this or that..reality, unfortunately many don't. We can all wish for the world to be a better place. Sadly, I don't think it'll happen.



And I'm sure or would hope that proper education would've prevented some mistakes. Maybe if that 15 yr old girl who had sex with her boyfriend who never seems to be around, used a condom, she wouldn't be stuck with a child, when shes a child herself, and you and I and the rest of the world wouldn't be paying to support it.



And we educate kids on the dangers of smoking. We, unfortunately, see young people light up though.

No, as a parent of 4, to include girls ages 9 and 12, I feel we need to affirmatively act to ensure that an 11 year old's "fantasy land" does not become a terminal nightmare. I am not "wishing", with respect to my girls, I am demanding. Heaven help anyone who ever molests - and that is precisely what this is - any of my kids.

To me, it ultimately is simple: Is it ever right for a Jr High age girl to be having sex? Ever? N-O.

Should a school ever be in the practice of facilitating the criminal act of an 11 year old having intercourse? N-O.

Should a school do something like this and hide it from parents? N-O.

No, never, not ever.

I have to be away for a few days, and have said all I need to anyway.

 

[MJS]

No, as a parent of 4, to include girls ages 9 and 12, I feel we need to affirmatively act to ensure that an 11 year old's "fantasy land" does not become a terminal nightmare. I am not "wishing", with respect to my girls, I am demanding. Heaven help anyone who ever molests - and that is precisely what this is - any of my kids.

I think you misunderstood. I was not talking about the fantasies of kids, I was talking about the fantasies of the parents of these kids who think that the world is perfect and their kids will be perfect little angels and nothing bad will ever happen. Of course we never want anything bad to happen to our kids, but I think some people are kidding themselves if they think their kids will 'stay pure' until they get married. Are there kids like that out there? I'm sure there are. But I'd be willing to bet the numbers of pure and innocent are lower than those who have had a sexual encounter.

To me, it ultimately is simple: Is it ever right for a Jr High age girl to be having sex? Ever? N-O.

But it happens. Is it right for a Jr. High school girl to drink or smoke? Nope, but it happens. We can wish all day long that it didn't but fact remains it does, more often than not.

Should a school ever be in the practice of facilitating the criminal act of an 11 year old having intercourse? N-O.

Should a school do something like this and hide it from parents? N-O.

No, never, not ever.

I have to be away for a few days, and have said all I need to anyway.

No, schools should not run around saying its ok to have sex, drink and smoke, but they need to help with the education, in addition to the parents of these kids.

Looking forward to your replies when you return.

Mike

 

[KempoGuy06]

No, it's giving them the ability to do so safely, if they choose too. The choice is still up to them, and will be influenced by there parents to some extent. But not giving them protection is kind of like not installing seat belts and air bags as a preventive measure to keep people from crashing IMO.

Kama Sutra books might not be a bad idea though, beats having them learn how to do it from porn

I think they need to just scare the crap out the kids, with made up facts about how easy it is to get STD's. I have a 12 yrs old cousing who is like a little sister to me, if I ever found out that they were doing this in her school I might have to beat someone's ***. Middle school is to young, I think they will view this the wrong way and not take the matter seriously.

I do agree karma sutra books would be a better substitute for porn

B

 

[michaeledward]

This article ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abigail-jones-and-marissa-miley/on-providing-birth-contro_b_69055.html ... offered up these facts ... from the 'Journal of Adolescent Health'.

• One in eight youth are sexually experienced, having engaged in intercourse, oral sex or both before the age of 14
• 9 percent reported ever having sexual intercourse...and 8 percent ever had oral sex (active or receptive)
• Of those who reported intercourse, 36 percent were age 11 or younger at first sex, 27 percent were 12, 28 percent were 13, and 9 percent were 14 or older
• 43 percent of sexually experienced participants reported multiple sex partners.

Wishing these facts to not occur will not change the existance of these facts.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Kids cant take asprin in school without parental consent but THEY can give kids BC without it? There are plenty of free sources for BC out there already. Why not just educate the kiddos on where to go?

This is about the school pushing another social/political agenda and separating the authority of a parent over their children a bit further so they can place themselves in the gap. And using our tax dollars to do it.

Ive dealt with enough educational experts to realize that some (many? I dont know) believe that its their duty to improve society through indoctronating (sp?) the kiddies with their agendas. Regardless of what the parents believe. Its all whats "best for society"though right?

Having condoms available is one thing. Circumventing the parents authority over a childs medical care by allowing perscriptions w/o consent? Thats a different ball game IMO. Espically with 11-12 yo's.

 

[MJS]

I think they need to just scare the crap out the kids, with made up facts about how easy it is to get STD's. I have a 12 yrs old cousing who is like a little sister to me, if I ever found out that they were doing this in her school I might have to beat someone's ***. Middle school is to young, I think they will view this the wrong way and not take the matter seriously.

I do agree karma sutra books would be a better substitute for porn

B

But do the scare tactics work though? I mean, how many times around prom and graduation, we see groups like MADD as well as the local PD and FD, doing a re-enactment of a serious MVA. This is in hopes to show the kids the reality of drinking and driving. Yet I have to wonder if the message is really being received.

I'm not saying that its a bad idea to use this method, just wondering its effectiveness.

 

[MJS]

This article ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abigail-jones-and-marissa-miley/on-providing-birth-contro_b_69055.html ... offered up these facts ... from the 'Journal of Adolescent Health'.

• One in eight youth are sexually experienced, having engaged in intercourse, oral sex or both before the age of 14
• 9 percent reported ever having sexual intercourse...and 8 percent ever had oral sex (active or receptive)
• Of those who reported intercourse, 36 percent were age 11 or younger at first sex, 27 percent were 12, 28 percent were 13, and 9 percent were 14 or older
• 43 percent of sexually experienced participants reported multiple sex partners.

Wishing these facts to not occur will not change the existance of these facts.

Thank you for posting this. I agree with your last paragraph. This is what I've been trying to say all along, and here we see some actual facts and numbers.

 

[Andrew Green]

But do the scare tactics work though? I mean, how many times around prom and graduation, we see groups like MADD as well as the local PD and FD, doing a re-enactment of a serious MVA. This is in hopes to show the kids the reality of drinking and driving. Yet I have to wonder if the message is really being received.

I'm not saying that its a bad idea to use this method, just wondering its effectiveness.

Scare tactics don't work because kids aren't stupid.

 

[CoryKS]

Scare tactics don't work because kids aren't stupid.

Not sure what you're saying here. Somebody shows kids the twisted, burnt remains of a drunk driver's vehicle. Of something that could happen to them if they engage in this behavior. The kids fail to learn from this, and you think it's because they are not stupid?

 

[Marginal]

Not sure what you're saying here. Somebody shows kids the twisted, burnt remains of a drunk driver's vehicle. Of something that could happen to them if they engage in this behavior. The kids fail to learn from this, and you think it's because they are not stupid?

How many adults fail that particular bit of mental math every day?

 

[CoryKS]

How many adults fail that particular bit of mental math every day?

I don't know how many adults fail that check every day. More importantly, I don't know how many didn't fail it. I don't see how one can determine how many potential accidents were averted because somebody made a better choice based on information they received about prior accidents. You can't say something doesn't work at all because it doesn't work 100%

I don't see how this is relevant to the question of how failing to learn from someone else's mistakes means they are not stupid.

 

[tellner]

The scare tactics demonstrably don't work. We've had years of officially sanctioned scare tactics. Countries which give straight, factual information notice declines in early intercourse and teen pregnancy as well as lower STD rates. One side effect of our country's stupid approach is that teens are less likely to take precautions, act responsibly and protect themselves when they do have sex. If it's all bad, it's all bad. They don't distinguish. They tend not to use any sort of prophylaxis or contraception compared to, say, their European counterparts. Of course, the European kids have been given the facts about their options. By law - Thanks, Chimpy! - schools are not allowed to do that, just talk about how much these measures fail.

Lies are not truth.
Ignorance is not strength.

 

[CoryKS]

One side effect of our country's stupid approach is that teens are less likely to take precautions, act responsibly and protect themselves when they do have sex.

Or maybe it's because people keep trying to put safeguards in place to protect them from their own dumbass decisions. People take more chances when you make things safer, not fewer.