Twin Fist
Grandmaster
my school is set up that BB should take about 4 years.
5 year old black belts?
- Thread starter Calhoun
- Start date
Cirdan
Senior Master
What does the black belt mean in your organization?
What is required to grade sucessfully?
I think that this is a fantastic idea. Businesses, particularly small businesses, that know that they can lose their license for pulling shenannigans will often simply not do so; unless you're a multi-million dollar corporation, it is prohibatively expensive to pull them and loss of license means you're pretty much done. While there will always be those businesses, large and small, that choose not to operate above board, the public at large is fairly well protected and has channels for recourse.
An instructor who cannot promote within an organization may simply go independent and continue promoting blackbelts, but it will be without having the Organization's backing. Now, if the organization published a list of certified instructors with promotion credentials, that would get the word out to the schools around the area. Then there would be a means for people to know who is and is not really on the up and up, at least within that organization.
Daniel
In our organization, the black belt means you have mastered a level of basics suitable for your age and physical condition. A young man of 22 in good physical shape will be graded differently than a 45 year old woman who is a little overweight.
You are required to demonstrate Palgwe Chi and Pal, free fight three times against three different opponents, and do at least one breaking technique.
In all three areas, your balance, fluidity, grace, speed, and power are all being observed and graded.
During forms, you must show that your techniques would be effective (rather than just sticking your limbs out) as you do it; during free fighting, you must show that you can contact enough to knock someone back with control; during breaking, if you don't break you don't pass. And it must be done with good form.
Keep in mind, as an instructor, you only 2-3 years to get someone to this level. If you stucannot do this, it is as much a reflection on you as them.
While I see where your coming from, I would disagree with this, at least as a generalization, though it may be true in some cases.
Four years to first dan may net a first dan that is more mature, with better technique, and with a better understanding of the art. In fact, people that I know who got their blackbelts back in the eighties took longer than two or three years and all of them were very, very good.
Some people can zing through in one and a half to two years with solid daily training and be dan level competent in their technique, but not most. Realistically, most people should take at least three years. The emphasis on gettng a blackbelt in two years, in my opinion, is a result of commercialization of the art. A potential customer is much more likely to commit to a two year course of study to get a blackbelt, seeing three years or more as more than they can really handle. Plus, most students quit after blackbelt anyway, so they want to get their belt and be done with it.
This is true even of students who are competent; after two years, unless the student intends a carreer in MA or is simply a lifer, they can't justify continued time spent. Unfortunately, these are perishable skills; kind of like the Spanish I took for three years in high school and can't remember hardly any of.
Martial arts, taught correctly, is alien to most of the American public. Just changing the mindset of most people is time consuming. I'd venture that fewer than ten percent of taekwondo students practice outside of class or go to class more than two times a week. On twice a week of class with little to no practice outside of class, two years is really not sufficient, in my opinion.
Daniel
jim777
Master Black Belt
Is the test actually different for the two, or just the weighting of the grade? In our school, everyone takes the exact same BB test, whether you're 16 or 60, and is graded the same as well.
Windsinger
Green Belt
As I read this thread, I keep thinking about a trip my Sabum Nym took to Poland. He was telling us how the TKD school he visited there was quite strict about testing. No more than twice a year. So, from white to black, you're looking a minimum of 5 years. One of the problems, I guess, with North America's go-go-go, I-want-it-now mentality. 
The Making of a Black Belt
It is good to have an end to journey towards,
but it is the journey that matters in the end
- Ursula K. Le Guin
It is good to have an end to journey towards,
but it is the journey that matters in the end
- Ursula K. Le Guin
Apart from the main bulk of the book, there were a few sections at the end that were mainly my views on things and the one here is one that I received a lot of contact about, praising it for its honest view of things, so as its something many feel strongly about, I thought it appropriate to relay it here as it concerns all of us!
When a student walks into a dojang they have this vision in their head, perhaps attained through television or films, or from the legendary stories of the masters, recited by their friends or read in books but no matter where it comes from, it is still the same the dream of mastery of a martial art and a Mcdojang instructor steals these dreams!
Parents bring their children to martial art classes for a myriad of reason, not least confidence and the same eventual dreams as the adults maybe its a parents wishful thinking, but there is no reason their children cannot grow up and mature into competent and capable martial artists. The problem is parents have no bench mark as they often start their children in the first martial art school they come across as they believe that every black belt is a master, every black belt is a great instructor and every black belt will guide and shape their child into a competent and capable martial artists only someone who has been round the block or dared to venture further afield than their own school knows this isnt the case! My advice to parents these days, unfortunately, is to shop around and to do a lot of shopping!
I had a parent of a student call me once, saying she was unhappy with her present school as the instructor was charging more and more each time. He changed the uniforms every six months, forcing the students to buy the new ones and sold them equipment when they joined that they had never used! The final straw for this parent was the instructor trying to make her sign a new three year contract into the masters club for her son, who was six years old! Incidentally, this club costs £600 per year more than the Black belt club, which was £600 a year more than the non-black belt club members paid! I felt a little sorry for the parent, knowing she had been sold by the sales hype, so I invited her down to the school as she wanted and asked her what grade her son was to which she replied hes a black belt! I was shocked, but nevertheless intrigued as to what qualities a six year old black belt would have. The parent was most concerned with her six year old retaining his grade and I had to bite my lip!
The parent turned up and this young black belt bounded into my class full of confidence, but as the class started the warm-up session he seemed concerned, looking around for his mother, eventually, before we had even finished this section he started to cry as he was completely out of his depth and this was just the warm up. After sobbing for a bit, he went to his mum for a cuddle and I asked her what he did to achieve his black belt, she said he had to do some combinations, punch some pads and show some kicks. I ask what patterns he learnt and she asked what was a pattern! Upon explaining, she said he hadnt learn any as it wasnt required for his age! Suffice to say, he never returned to my school. His former club had indeed given him something, they gave him a black belt he didnt earn, that didnt have any worth except to his parents pride (however misplaced it was), but worst of all they gave him bucket loads of false confidence that was taken away the minute he stepped out of that school into the real world of martial arts!
This is not an isolated case as many other parents have been sold similar things, with these unscrupulous instructors pandering to the parents and students egos, by waving a black belt in front of them and letting them know just how achievable it is, as long as they pay the right price! Adults have been fooled in the same way as well, though they are more capable of handling the fact that they have been sold a dud and usually blame themselves for not doing their research properly in the first place and some, even if not all, are resolute about learning proper martial arts, so are content to start over. These students I hold in the highest regard, it is not an easy thing to admit and even harder to do these students have the right spirit, one that can really take them where they want to go!
Students reasons for starting a martial art and then sticking with it can change over time and are varied, but every student, who attains the lofty rank of black belts wishes and hopes, at least initially, to be worthy of the grade, after all the clothes maketh the man and so in Taekwon-do, the belt maketh the student so the worth of that belt needs to be maintained.
Once a black belt held much worth, simply because it was only obtainable with diligence and hard training. Now it is seen as obtainable by anyone, even with little effort, but more so as part of the schools ethos or part of their advertising campaign as long as they turn up and pay their money! A black belt should never be guaranteed, it is a celebration of blood, sweat and tears, of over coming many obstacles and a celebration of passing into the next phase of Taekwon-do training. The fork in a tough hard road that is meant to represent the wearer being Impervious to darkness and fear` - a road that many are simply not capable of travelling (well actually they are, but its a damn hard trek)! Its worth has been devalued.
Though some argue that Taekwon-do places a different emphasis on what a black belt means, as do some other arts, but one only has to think back to when they began Taekwon-do and think what a black belt seemed to them, whether correct or not this is actually what it should mean (or at least pretty close to it). I sincerely doubt that any beginner has thought of a black belt grade as lacking in knowledge or skills, or not being able the perform black belty type things! I guess the essence is that in my mind at least, a black belt should have three attributes:
1. Knowledge in the areas related to the dan grade and skills at a certain level in applying that knowledge
2. A certain mental toughness fostered from many years of hard training
3. The ability to hang with others of equal grade. By that I mean at all areas they should be roughly equal. There will always be students who can break more than others, or spar faster etc. But no black belt should look way out of their depth in any areas next to a fellow dan grade.
All three of these areas have been eroded over time, as clubs, instructors and associations give away black belts to one and all, claiming to make the black belt more accessible or simply ignoring what it originally represented to them, but its really an exercise of increasing numbers or not losing students income and the one who loses in the end, is actually the student who placed their faith and hope in you to begin with!
A black belts worth shouldnt be bought but should be affordable by all, affordable by way of hard work, sweat, tears and perhaps even a little blood on occasion as these are the traits and trials of hard endeavours and nothing of any value comes easy. By making the road to black belt, a hard though not impossible journey, we can retain its value and its worth though I feel it may be a little too late for that, but as Gandhi once said You must be the change you wish to see in the world so I for one will keep on keeping on!
Within Taekwon-do some feel that the black belt is simply a representation of someone who has a good grasp of the basics of our art and even though what actually represents the basics is debateable, some do not even seem to have done that in order to gain the right to wear the black belt around their waist. But even then, saying it simply represents the basics doesnt relate to the meaning of black belt in Taekwon-do, which says the wearer should be impervious to darkness and fear how many six year olds feel like that? In my mind, simply having a grasp of the basics doesnt correlate to being impervious to darkness and fear, which takes me back to the aforementioned 3 attributes that should make a black belt! And that to me is just the minimum requirements in my mind, to me there is more to being a black belt than just that, but thats a whole new discussion!
Reproduced from the book Chang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications To The ITF Patterns
Cirdan
Senior Master
You are on a narrow path. Slow down and it will be wider.
The tests are the same for everyone, but weighted differently for different people. You certainly cannot expect a 45 year old woman to perform at the same level as a 22 year old athletic male.
I do agree with the idea that martial arts is a journey. However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases. Every organization tests for higher rank. However, if you know that a testing will take place within 2-3 months, chances are you will put more time and energy into mastering the techniques and forms to be ready for testing. If testings are every 8-9 months, there is no sense of urgency and less motivation to master the techniques since you have to wait 9 months.
In this sense, a Taekwondo instructor and a school teacher are similar. Both operate under a timeframe, so to speak, and if the student isn't learning eventually it comes down to how is he being taught?
I do agree with the idea that martial arts is a journey. However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases. Every organization tests for higher rank. However, if you know that a testing will take place within 2-3 months, chances are you will put more time and energy into mastering the techniques and forms to be ready for testing. If testings are every 8-9 months, there is no sense of urgency and less motivation to master the techniques since you have to wait 9 months.
In this sense, a Taekwondo instructor and a school teacher are similar. Both operate under a timeframe, so to speak, and if the student isn't learning eventually it comes down to how is he being taught?
Youngman we all have a different approach to our training, I know for me I knew I would be a lifer without a question some forty years later, I still feel the same way. If it works for you and your student and they are happy keep doing it your way. No single person has a right to downplay what you are doing and how it is done. I know I will always do certain things that other just do not feel it is right. The soul purpose of this thread was about 5 years old BB and why would people do that and I commend you for stating everything else about the way you test and all.
Keep doing everything and keep thos efolks involoved in TKD.
Keep doing everything and keep thos efolks involoved in TKD.
I kind of agree with you, but I disagree regarding the firm timeline, and the analogy, while appropriate, is somewhat flawed.
The equivalent to a blackbelt in school is a high school diploma, for which the school system takes thirteen years to grant (K through 12). Just counting high school, it is four years, which is about reasonable for a solid blackbelt. In fact when I started out, time to black belt averaged about just that; four years. And those guys could really fight!
Also consider that a schoolteacher has a huge advantage that a martial arts instructor does not have: a captive audience, required by law to sit in the classroom five days a week. It is easy to establish a firm timeline when you have enforced attendence.
Please note that I am not saying that two year blackbelt is somehow not really a black belt. I would never presume to judge the skill of another based upon anything but seeing them in action. I am saying that I don't believe that the average American MA student puts in enough time training to be solid after only two years without prior experience in a similar MA.
I do agree that more frequent tests maintain interest for a student. The flip side is that more frequent tests have bloated the belts from like four or five to like twelve at most schools, my own included.
But then what is a student going to class for? Belts or knowledge and skill? If the former, then two years is about all that you can hold the student's attention for. If the latter, then the belt is unimportant. I for one don't want people to be impressed at when they see me in uniform with my black belt; I want them to be impressed when they see me fight in street clothes. The only time they should be impressed with my belt is when it is used as a weapon.
Daniel
jim777
Master Black Belt
I agree that you cannot expect them to perform at the same level (or really expect any two different people to perform at identical levels), but even while performing at different levels they should both be expected to clear identical hurdles, and pass identical tests. For example, if your test requires 3 breaks, and the 22 year old can do 10, good for him! But even if the 45 year old can only do 3, they both pass because they've cleared identical hurdles, not because one performs at a higher level. My problem would be if the test was 3 breaks for 20 somethings, and 2 for fortysomething soccer moms. The BB test should be the same for all BB candidates in my opinion, and (to bring it back to the thread) if a 5 year old or 10 year can't pass it, too bad.
Actually, I feel it is the opposite.. I feel a decent slog tempers the spirit and determination, whilst allows a decent amount of skill level increasment. The fact that many quit after BB is testament to them thinking they have "Got There!" not that its just the first "Big Step" in a longer journey.. the BB is a pivotal point in many areas and thus it should be considerably hard to achieve, though not unachieveable for those that invest the correct time and effort to do so!
2 years in my schools means 3rd Kup maximum for someone who is training and grading on a very regular basis! Mosts BBs in my school take around 6 years and thats very harding training adult students not kids (who would take consideribly longer).
Stuart
I started to respond to questions about testing, and decided my response was off the original topic of 5 year old black belts - so I've started a new thread instead: The purpose and value of testing
We now return you to your original topic, already in progress.
We now return you to your original topic, already in progress.
I'm completely with you on this one, Jim. The first dan test that I took for kendo is one that a ten year old would never have been able to pass. The taekwondo blackbelt tests that I watched at my old school were such that eighteen year olds were seriously challenged and a twelve to fourteen year old would never have been able to pass, let alone an five to ten year old. I'd go so far as to say that putting a five year old through that test would be criminal!
Daniel
jim777
Master Black Belt
Originally Posted by YoungMan
However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases.
Well then this explains why so many of my students leave, they can get a BB in 18 months down the street. With me it is between 4-6 years, damm Hippies.
However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases.
Well then this explains why so many of my students leave, they can get a BB in 18 months down the street. With me it is between 4-6 years, damm Hippies.
And I'd be willing to bet that not one of those eighteen month blackbelts could pass the same test that your blackbelts take.Originally Posted by YoungMan
However, I also believe that if students have to wait 5 years or more to test for black belt, the motivation to improve themselves dramatically decreases.
Well then this explains why so many of my students leave, they can get a BB in 18 months down the street. With me it is between 4-6 years, damm Hippies.
Daniel
