21 year old 6th degree Blackbelt

[dancingalone]

I always find it interesting that people use hindsight reasoning to say why Kano/Mifune were the exceptions and make excuses. Some on the thread did add in clarifiers about being a prodigy and so forth so this observation doesn't apply to them, but many do not and will backpedal when they find out it was Kano.

I am sceptical of high ranking youngsters viewed through the lens of the HERE and NOW. I don't particularly care how things were done over a century ago by Kano in another country with very different living conditions from what I live in now myself. That fact is that arts like judo or karate or aikido have built up a body of expectations and customs over the years since they were founded. I would haphazard to say that most of these are good ones, such as the practice of allowing reasonable time to pass before promoting a student to a higher rank, thus making young 7th dans an unlikely or impossible occurrence.

So pointing out that Kano or Ueshiba or Shimabukuro did it really doesn't mean much to me. All of their respective arts have moved on since their founding and we know in judo and aikido, you simply won't get a 21 year 6th dan. Not from a legitimate organization anyway.

 

[Ken Morgan]

opps

 

[MJS]

There will always be your stand-outs in a school. I've taught for many years, and I've seen it first hand, with students of all ages. There are some 6yr olds that pick things up, their parents work with them, and are a part of their journey. There're other 6yos that in a nutshell, suck. Sorry to be blunt, just sayin'....

The prodigy such as described here....well, again, people like this are far and few between. Personally, I'm of the mind, where you should be in your early teens before you even think about training. 12, 13...that IMO, is a good starting age. 4-5yrs for BB, and for each degree you're going for, you wait that many years. IE: 1st-2nd degree, 2yrs. 2nd-3rd, 3yrs, and so forth. By the time you're an 8th or 9th degree, you're in your 60s.

Of course, in todays world, or way of thinking, its all about the belt. Who gives a **** how old you are, what matters more is that you keep getting those belts. LMFAO!! Sad but true. Who cares about skill...as long as Joey has that 4th degree at 13yrs old.

Personally, I'd run, not walk, away from a school, in which I saw a 12yo 2nd degree BB.

But thats just me. To each their own I suppose. I guess some standards are higher, or in certain cases, lower than others. *shrug*

 

[MJS]

On another note...heres something interesting. You have your BJJ standouts like BJ Penn, who got their BB, I've heard, in something like 3 or 4yrs., where on average, AFAIK, its normally something like 10. So, that being said, why is it that you could walk into a Karate school and ***** if you dont get your BB in 3yrs, yet people flock to BJJ schools all over the world, and are perfectly fine with waiting 10yrs.?

 

[Carol]

He's 21.
7 is a lucky number and goes into 21 three times.
Because we are in a century where the year begins with the number '2', we multiply 3 twice to arrive at the number 6.

There you are: 6th dan.

Daniel

I'm so stealing that.

 

[Carol]

On another note...heres something interesting. You have your BJJ standouts like BJ Penn, who got their BB, I've heard, in something like 3 or 4yrs., where on average, AFAIK, its normally something like 10. So, that being said, why is it that you could walk into a Karate school and ***** if you dont get your BB in 3yrs, yet people flock to BJJ schools all over the world, and are perfectly fine with waiting 10yrs.?

I'm guessing its because of how it is emphasized.

The mantra drummed in to karate students is that the belt is the goal.

The mantra drummed in to BJJ students is that proving yourself through competition is the goal.

 

[chinto]

not credible at all. I am sorry but I would not believe some one was qualified with that level of experiance and training I might buy shodan or nidan. but go dan or higher is not credible!

 

[Aiki Lee]

in our system we don't have time restraints, but it is not likely that a person can achieve the necessary level of skill one might expect from a 6th dan in any system in such a short amount of time.

It would depend on what 6th dan means for that organization. Maybe they have a very very short cirriculum.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I don't believe in time in systems grading! It should be all about the quality of the skill sets!

If you look back in martial history you will see this is not all that uncommon. Typically a new system like Judo needed exponents to teach and spread the system so a talented individual is promoted to go out and show the masses. Irregardless at such a young age how much depth did he have to teach? I don't know I was not there! (though I imagine his teaching skill left a little to be desired) Personally I prefer someone with more experience! Needless to say I think progressing someone so fast usually ends in failure. Usually being the key word here! However, when you have an individual like Kano who managed to get it into public schools, etc. Then there might be a better chance of success. Yet, go to your local McDojo and see someone promoted so fast that they went right out the door when they got bored!

When I look at ranking in the Martial Sciences few systems in my opinion have gotten in right. BJJ is one that to this point has primarily been able to maintain quality. However, with its popularity expanding exponentially there has been a little slippage. Unfortunately the "belt" is and should not be the end goal! Way to many people miss this! (way to many) It should and always must be about the skill sets! If someone has great skill sets then that is their rank! Not some silly belt or title!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I suppose its each style/dojo to their own. I know where I train we just had a 35 year old promoted to 6th dan, he has been training since he could walk and is very very good. He will now have to wait another 7 years before being able to test for 7th dan. Going by this it just doesnt seem possible that you could get a 'reputable' 6th dan at age 21.

 

[72ronin]

I might also add, that it is not a clear cut comparison to compare a modern 21 year old 6th dan to one from 80 - 100 or so years ago.

The lifestyles and training regimen surely are way too different to make any defined comparison of any value. I would go as far as to say that Mifune Sensei would have practicaly lived Judo, whereas a modern student may possibly only train a few nights of an hour or so each a week perhaps.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

The student in question is none other than.
Mifune, Kyuzo (b1883-d1965) He began Judo at age 13 and joined the Kodokan in 1903. By 1912, he was already a Rokudan (6th Degree black belt) and a Kodokan instructor. He was unbelievably energetic and eventually stood at the head of the Kodokan's instructors. The speed with which he mastered the techniques of Judo can only be matched by the rapidity of his promotion. He received the grade of 10th dan on May 25, 1945, was the second youngest man to be promoted to 10th Dan, and he held his rank nearly 20 years, the longest of any 10th Dan.

It's interesting information I think and makes you rethink how we view rank and what it originally meant when created.

Props for the setup......

Of course one should question anyone who gains rank that fast.........that being said, it can be done, as you illustrated........though I doubt anyone trains today like those guys trained back then, or if it would legal.

Joe Lewis earned his first black belt in 7 months......though no one would dispute the blood and sweat he left doing it. So it can be done, obviously.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I might also add, that it is not a clear cut comparison to compare a modern 21 year old 6th dan to one from 80 - 100 or so years ago.

The lifestyles and training regimen surely are way too different to make any defined comparison of any value. I would go as far as to say that Mifune Sensei would have practicaly lived Judo, whereas a modern student may possibly only train a few nights of an hour or so each a week perhaps.

Exactly! I'm not sure if a teenage kid today would be allowed to do what he likely did to earn his rank.

 

[K-man]

I can think of another prominent martial artist, still alive, who began training at 20 years of age, without kyu or dan grading was promoted to 5th dan at age 22 after only 6 months training with the master. At age 49 he was elevated to 10th dan and has been one of the most influential people in this style of MA. In fairness, he had practised a related MA previously but had no high ranking if any.

Have a guess who.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I can think of another prominent martial artist, still alive, who began training at 20 years of age, without kyu or dan grading was promoted to 5th dan at age 22 after only 6 months training with the master. At age 49 he was elevated to 10th dan and has been one of the most influential people in this style of MA. In fairness, he had practised a related MA previously but had no high ranking if any.

Have a guess who.

Bob jones.

 

[72ronin]

Bob jones.

Bob Jones received rank from Tino Ceberano.. I am pretty sure it wasnt 5th dan.
So it cant be Big Red. Could be Norton for all i know, but i dont think it is either of these two..... Who is it K-Man?

OK, wild whacky guess here.... Kenji Midori ??
Who is it man LOL

 

[dbell]

After a bit more reading, it seems that the "founder" of his style was 22 years old and had studied various japanese styles, before starting and declaring the style.

Who, as in what group, nation, person, recognizes this "new style" as being a valid fighting style out of curiosity? What does it consist of?

Whole things sounds kinda fishy to me...

 

[dbell]

The founder's name in this case is Jigaro Kano and the styles name is Judo. Kano created Judo after only about 5 years of study in various japanese jujitsu styles.

The student in question is none other than.
Mifune, Kyuzo (b1883-d1965) He began Judo at age 13 and joined the Kodokan in 1903. By 1912, he was already a Rokudan (6th Degree black belt) and a Kodokan instructor. He was unbelievably energetic and eventually stood at the head of the Kodokan's instructors. The speed with which he mastered the techniques of Judo can only be matched by the rapidity of his promotion. He received the grade of 10th dan on May 25, 1945, was the second youngest man to be promoted to 10th Dan, and he held his rank nearly 20 years, the longest of any 10th Dan.

It's interesting information I think and makes you rethink how we view rank and what it originally meant when created.

But in this case, you also have to understand the time in history, and the amount of time spent training back then.

In today's culture I don't see it as being as valid.

Kano-sensei spent hours each day training, seven days a week. And in Judo, you have 50 throws to learn, with their variations, and back then some punching and kicking as well, and it can be master a bit quicker than some other arts out there.

 

[clfsean]

Bob jones.

Who?

 

[seasoned]

Well, I remember when I was 21, no wait, I can't remember that far back. Ok, I remember when my son was 21, . I think there is a certain amount of mental responsibility involved there, that only comes with TIME, just saying..............