Xing Yi Quan: Five element - Han Yanwu

[Oily Dragon]

Yeah I mean even the assigning of animals we spoke about Wood being crane is different from what I was taught it being Mantis. Even snake was a wood option. I saw tiger assigned to wood which I thought was the strangest thing haha.

Is there books or articles where I can study wu xing in martial arts terms? I mean generally as well would be great but I think starting off the martial arts wu xing would be great.

Yeah that would be great!

Yeah u always thought this stuff had alot of depth and well as you said it wasn't Basic stuff but I figured that was the good part to it. When my instructor originally introduced me to the elements/xing yi I completely changed my training lol. For sure I remember being told that as well. Mastering them individually at first is fine but then if you don't blend them it's really an incomplete art.

Yeah I'm out today but I'll dig around.

Another important tidbit, is that the animals come from different actual styles. There are different tiger styles, Crane styles, even different mantis.

Elements are different. There are no water, wood, earth styles etc. These are different aspects assigned to specific styles or situations. Xing Yi does it their way, Hung Ga has very specific animal-element links.

But TCMA also has elements. So any book on that, you'll find it like they said earlier.

Spicy foods are fire, e.g. Certain illnesses are considered "wet" and so have Earth remedies. TCMA is a whole other thing so it's best left out of the convo.

 

[CMyers0323]

Yeah I'm out today but I'll dig around.

Another important tidbit, is that the animals come from different actual styles. There are different tiger styles, Crane styles, even different mantis.

Elements are different. There are no water, wood, earth styles etc. These are different aspects assigned to specific styles or situations. Xing Yi does it their way, Hung Ga has very specific animal-element links.

But TCMA also has elements. So any book on that, you'll find it like they said earlier.

Spicy foods are fire, e.g. Certain illnesses are considered "wet" and so have Earth remedies. TCMA is a whole other thing so it's best left out of the convo.

No worries it's appreciated.

Yeah that would make sense if that's why there's a bamboo Forrest Mantis, Chow Gar, etc.

That is more fitting since they aren't exactly as definable as the animals are. Also why there aren't as many Elemental techniques as to animal ones. More philosophy on the elements as well.

I never really realized just how many styles contain their versions of the elements. Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Xing Yi, Hung Ga. I'm sure there are more.

I should honestly study more TCM and such while it's not Kung Fu it's good to know all of it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I should honestly study more TCM and such while it's not Kung Fu it's good to know all of it.

Well there are a lot of very useful TCM /kung fu things to learn, just not germane to the thread.

Teas for instance. I'm into my late stage kung fu tea alchemy/experiment phase. It's a lot of fun testing different blends, even teas from different eras (pre-Ching green tea). I helped a lot of people through their COVID and flu symptoms with hot, thousand year old recipes.

Jow recipes are definitely part of deeper Xing Yi stuff, where element concepts factor in. Again just don't want to steer this away from combat applications.

 

[CMyers0323]

Well there are a lot of very useful TCM /kung fu things to learn, just not germane to the thread.

Teas for instance. I'm into my late stage kung fu tea alchemy/experiment phase. It's a lot of fun testing different blends, even teas from different eras (pre-Ching green tea). I helped a lot of people through their COVID and flu symptoms with hot, thousand year old recipes.

Jow recipes are definitely part of deeper Xing Yi stuff, where element concepts factor in. Again just don't want to steer this away from combat applications.

Actually yeah I mean with my knowledge herbal things would be probably one of the useful things for martial artists.

Oh wow that's cool! I've been experimenting with some herbs not so much tea besides ginger tea but I eat it raw for its benefits mostly. Wow that's amazing. I've got tons of books on herbs I just never knew where to start.

Id love to learn about elemental jow recipe. The closest i got to it was a "warming jow" didnt feel warm but the goal is to have it accumulate Qi in said area. Yeah totally understandable don't want to cause any more distractions on these threads haha.

 

[marvin8]

Who is right and who is wrong If you say,

Water – Left
Fire – Right

and I say,

Water – Right
Fire – Left

There is a difference. Again, "Assuming your opponent has a left lead stance, as he moves back, approach him from your right, and you can close him down from his outer gate." Depending on stances, some elements may be more advantageous than others.

Also, what's the combat meaning of this?

Excerpt from "Tʼai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions:"

Song of Gaze-Left
To the left, to the right, yin and yang
change according to the situation.
We evade to the left and strike from the right
with strong sure steps.
The hands and feet work together and
likewise knees, elbows and waist.
Our opponent cannot fathom our movements
and has no defense against us.

Song of Look-Right
Feigning to the left, we attack to the right
with perfect steps.
Striking left and attacking right,
we follow the opportunities.
We avoid the frontal and advance from the
side, seizing changing conditions.
Left and right, full and empty,
our technique must be faultless.

Someone had 1 hour workshop working on "Earth – Center (non-movement 中定)". It's hard to believe that anyone can train center for 1 hour.

Starting at 22:42,

Whereas the internal martial arts whatever technique you learn you have to modify it to be able to use it effectively. So that's not a very direct way of learning things. Like boxing you throw a punch and you throw a punch… My opinion on this issue is that with internal martial arts it's developed like 300 years ago let's say two three hundred years ago and at the time people's understanding of fighting is different than people's understanding of fighting nowadays… Internal martial arts developed two [or] three hundred years ago. At the time maybe their understanding of fighting techniques were sufficient. You know today maybe it's not sufficient. Competitive martial arts has evolved. So nowadays we have mixed martial arts. Everything has evolved. So to be able to fight in the cage, you need to be a complete martial artist. You have to know everything boxing kickboxing, jiujitsu, grappling and all that. So I just feel for internal martial arts to be able to be effective in the modern sense of fighting has to evolve…

I think internal martial arts is an ineffective way of learning how to fight. If all you really care about just fighting, go do competitive martial arts—go to boxing, go to kickboxing, go to grappling jiu jitsu. That is going to be very direct and you learn on day one how to find out whatever techniques that you learn you don't have to modify it. You just use it the way it is and the only thing that you have to think about is the technical aspects how do you set up your techniques…

So internal martial arts is very abstract in that sense that any techniques you learn you have to modify it. How do you know it works or not? You don't know, right? You have to spend a lot of time in training the internal component, do the stance training and all that. And the amount of time that that you spend on doing the same training the amount of time you spend on doing the tai chi form or the bagua one. All that time you're not using it to learn how to become effective martial artist, to learn how to use it. So to me it's a very ineffective way of learning how to fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think internal martial arts is an ineffective way of learning how to fight.

This is what I'm trying to say. To learn

Water – Left
Fire – Right

cannot help my fighting skill in any way.

When I use XY Pi Quan to pull my opponent's leading arm down, it's logical that my arm pulling hand can change into Zuan Quan (upper cut) to punch my opponent's chin.

IMO, XY 5 elements has combat value. But Taiji 5 elements has no combat value.

 

[marvin8]

This is what I'm trying to say. To learn

Water – Left
Fire – Right

cannot help my fighting skill in any way.

However, you posted only part of the definition. You left out the action/reaction relationship with the opponent part.

When I use XY Pi Quan to pull my opponent's leading arm down, it's logical that my arm pulling hand can change into Zuan Quan (upper cut) to punch my opponent's chin.

IMO, XY 5 elements has combat value. But Taiji 5 elements has no combat value.

Your opponent will not punch, freeze and keep their arms straight out—while you hard arm block (metal), step and pull their leading arm down, then change into Zuan Quan (upper cut).

From the Da Lu videos at 3:15 & 2:30,

Throw a punch. [I block], wrong, I waited. I defended myself against Erin's fist, wrong… Now I defend myself against his body—totally disregard the weapon that's coming for you disregard it totally. Worry about what the body is doing. Now because I fought against the body and not just the peripheral [punch]. Now my body is in exactly the right position for control and reattack, instantly attack. It's in exactly the right position.

Whereas this, my body is in no position at all. No position whatsoever… You never quite get to put your technique on. Because as soon as you go to…you got a fist in your face. So we've got to defend yourself against that fist.

 

[CMyers0323]

What does everyone consider their forms of Xing Yi elements to use for their tactics? Most will agree Metal is splitting/ dividing. I was always told Wood is short power, crushing, springy. Any other input?

I know the basics are
Earth - crossing
Metal - splitting
Water - drilling
Wood - crushing
Fire - blasting

It would be cool to see if anyone else has more than just the basics

 

[Xue Sheng]

What does everyone consider their forms of Xing Yi elements to use for their tactics? Most will agree Metal is splitting/ dividing. I was always told Wood is short power, crushing, springy. Any other input?

I know the basics are
Earth - crossing
Metal - splitting
Water - drilling
Wood - crushing
Fire - blasting

It would be cool to see if anyone else has more than just the basics

What do you mean by "use for their tactics"

What you use is generally dictated by the situation you are faces with, it is not choreographed in real application, you don't look at confrontation as if they attack with fire I respond with water, there is no time for such distinctions

Piquan - metal - has more than one use
Zuanquan - water - can multiple uses
Bengquan - wood - mostly a very powerful punch
Paoquan - fire - can have more than one use
Hengquan - earth - also has different uses

 

[CMyers0323]

What do you mean by "use for their tactics"

What you use is generally dictated by the situation you are faces with, it is not choreographed in real application, you don't look at confrontation as if they attack with fire I respond with water, there is no time for such distinctions

Piquan - metal - has more than one use
Zuanquan - water - can multiple uses
Bengquan - wood - mostly a very powerful punch
Paoquan - fire - can have more than one use
Hengquan - earth - also has different uses

Well both in what Earth would be in type of fighting but also the tactic. So earth from what I was taught wad grappling. Also tactics just like for the Wood element they use short power, springy, and squeezing like tactics. Not sure if that clears anything up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you mean by "use for their tactics"

What you use is generally dictated by the situation you are faces with, it is not choreographed in real application, you don't look at confrontation as if they attack with fire I respond with water, there is no time for such distinctions

When your opponent punches you, you do have options. You can:

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

 

[CMyers0323]

When your opponent throws a punch at you, you do have options. You can:

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick (wood).

Very cool! I usually thought of fire as just countering or intercepting. I also have been taught Metal being a hard block. I can see how earth would be a soft block. I assume by arm warp that's something like a "Snake circling around or wrapping" the arm?

That's cool for Wood as well. Alot of the wood stuff i was taught was short range.

I know water can be drilling in terms of attack but I'm not sure if anything else would be considered water for attacking.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know water can be drilling in terms of attack but I'm not sure if anything else would be considered water for attacking.

Water is calm until you throw a rock into it. If your opponent punches to your

- right, your body spin to your right and you counter with a left hook punch.
- left, your body spin to your left and you counter with a right hook punch.

The water strategy counter depends on the attack.

 

[CMyers0323]

Water is calm until you throw a rock into it. If your opponent punches to your

- right, your body spin to your right and you counter with a left hook punch.
- left, your body spin to your left and you counter with a right hook punch.

The water strategy counter depends on the attack.

Very awesome. Sounds very bagua like. Almost "roll with the punch" not really an Evasion but more so "rolling" with it? I've used the turning if I understand how you mentioned a few times in some more grappling areas its definitely risky but it can work well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very cool! I usually thought of fire as just countering or intercepting. I also have been taught Metal being a hard block. I can see how earth would be a soft block. I assume by arm warp that's something like a "Snake circling around or wrapping" the arm?

That's cool for Wood as well. Alot of the wood stuff i was taught was short range.

I know water can be drilling in terms of attack but I'm not sure if anything else would be considered water for attacking.

Fire (paoquan) is also attack, Metal (piquan) is a block, a strike a grab. Water (zuanquan) is an attack and a block, Earth (hengquan) is a strike, a block and can also be Shuaijiao. Wood (bengquan), is a very hard punch

But all of xingyiquan is attack, even in defense

Your basic 5 elements in xingyiquan are just that, basic. All forms should be practice going forward, backwards, opposite leg, and all foot work patterns. Also train constructive and creative cycles and then switch up the order even more

As to Tactic..... by definition a tactic is an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end. You cannot do that for a real confrontation.

 

[CMyers0323]

Fire (paoquan) is also attack, Metal (piquan) is a block, a strike a grab. Water (zuanquan) is an attack and a block, Earth (hengquan) is a strike, a block and can also be Shuaijiao. Wood (bengquan), is a very hard punch

But all of xingyiquan is attack, even in defense

Your basic 5 elements in xingyiquan are just that, basic. All forms should be practice going forward, backwards, opposite leg, and all foot work patterns. Also train constructive and creative cycles and then switch up the order even more

As to Tactic..... by definition a tactic is an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end. You cannot do that for a real confrontation.

That makes alot of sense I've always thought Fire is just all attack basically haha. Where as metal is all defense. I would never have really thought metal would be a grab. More so earth in that it's grabbing.

That's cool I agree there. I mainly Train the elements in the creative cycle not the destructive but obviously the sets are more so done that way.

Makes sense I wasn't sure if there was ones that are generally speaking considered Elemental.

Whats your thoughts on Wu Xing? I didn't know there was a martial arts called that. I only knew Xing Yi as the Elemental style and Wu Xing theory. I guess there's a whole style with forms and such? But I personally can't find any books on it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That makes alot of sense I've always thought Fire is just all attack basically haha. Where as metal is all defense. I would never have really thought metal would be a grab. More so earth in that it's grabbing.

That's cool I agree there. I mainly Train the elements in the creative cycle not the destructive but obviously the sets are more so done that way.

Makes sense I wasn't sure if there was ones that are generally speaking considered Elemental.

Whats your thoughts on Wu Xing? I didn't know there was a martial arts called that. I only knew Xing Yi as the Elemental style and Wu Xing theory. I guess there's a whole style with forms and such? But I personally can't find any books on it.

Wuxing comes from Chinese Philosophy and Chinese Medicine. It was adopted by various martial arts. My though of Wuxing is more of a way to gain health by strengthening various elements realted with various organs, as for its application in martial arts, to me, it is more of a training method

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chinese Wuxing - The Beijing Center 北京中国学中心

Wuxing (五行), also known as the Five Elements, is a traditional Chinese conceptual scheme. It is used to explain an array of phenomena, from cosmic cycles to the interaction between internal organs. It originally refers to the five major planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Mars, and Venus) that...

thebeijingcenter.org

 

[CMyers0323]

Wuxing comes from Chinese Philosophy and Chinese Medicine. It was adopted by various martial arts. My though of Wuxing is more of a way to gain health by strengthening various elements realted with various organs, as for its application in martial arts, to me, it is more of a training method

That's what I thought but I've seen a few videos and such that implied it was a martial art or had forms/techniques. I'm not sure if this relates to how other styles also do a Elemental system. Like 5 Element Tai Chi, Wing Chun etc.

 

[marvin8]

When your opponent punches you, you do have options. You can:

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

When your opponent punches you with beng quan (wood), do you have options? Can you...?

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

Why or why not?