Wu Taiji vs Tibetan White Crane

[windwalker099]

Do I feel, well I was not there, but my answer is no. My Shifu was there, he never commented directly on the white crane guy, but he thought the entire spectacle was pathetic, and was entirely unimpressed with the Wu side of things, as was his Shifu...
This video is paraded out every year or 2 by someone as an example of two different things and only those 2 different things

1) to show how great CMA is
2) How awful CMA is
And it is not an example of either....it is only an example of that one, rather sad encounter

Not the intention of this thread outlined in the OP...
Have also noted the same things over the yrs...

Tung style demo by Tung Yin Chi

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not the intention of this thread outlined in the OP...
Have also noted the same things over the yrs...

Tung style demo by Tung Yin Chi

Tung Ying Chieh did a demo prior to the match, that is why my Shifu was there, his shifu (Tung Ying Chieh) was there

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Both teachers were noted for their skill sets...
The basic question was if the skill set usage was reflected in the 1954 match..

Whether one has developed any "door guarding" skill or not is easy to tell. He will use his "door guarding" skill over and over in the same fight.

 

[Same Trick]

Had asked about the histories of the teachers and if they were noted representatives of their styles.

Sources: Chat AI, Wikipedia, various websites

Corrections for historical inaccuracies, or misrepresentations of the teachers' backgrounds are appreciated.

“Wu Gongyi (吳公儀):
born in 1900, was a prominent figure in the world of Chinese martial arts, particularly known for his contributions to Wu-style Tai Chi Chuan (太極拳). He was the eldest son of Wu Jianquan (吳鑑泉), the founder of the Wu style of Tai Chi Chuan. Wu Gongyi was instrumental in spreading and popularizing this martial art form both in”


I would say Quan You was the founder of Wu family line of TJQ, he would be the grandfather of Wu Gongjie whose father(Wu Jianquan) kind of “remodeled” his TJQ so it’s now called “southern Wu-TJQ”.

A little as also happened to Yang-TJQ when it went south.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

“Wu Gongyi (吳公儀):

At least he threw punches and not just "push". That was a big plus there already.

 

[O'Malley]

When I first saw this, I also wondered about both teachers. After talking with a noted Hop Gar master, he asked for my thoughts and then said, paraphrased, "It's fighting, how do you think it's supposed to look?"

This conversation changed my perspective, though it seems the Taiji teacher was not following the basic principles of his style.
The TWC teacher, was using many of the TWC movements and principles...

Had asked about the difference between western and CMA approaches..
IMO of what is shown, a typical CMA approach of trying to run over the opponent.

Not often seen in western boxing matches with skill sets evenly matched...
between the opponents.

In the age of "MMA as the standard", it's interesting to ponder if "fighting" is much more influenced by cultural factors than we usually think. Perhaps we fight according to our idea of what a fight should look like.

I've heard that, before the introduction of karate and boxing to mainland Japan, fights looked much more like sumo, since that was one of the most popular pastimes. And in France, it's quite common to bully people with foot sweeps:

And of course weapons change according to the country: a street encounter in the US has a far greater chance of involving firearms than in most European countries (and in London the probabilities of being pulled a knife are higher).

We can argue about the advantages of an approach over another and there are a lot of valid points to make, but we might all have our own cultural biases as well.

 

[Same Trick]

The White crane vs Taiji guy are of same cultural background but their performance was of non skill whatsoever

It was mentioned they were noted for their skill-set, but that for sure doesn’t seem to be combative skill-set.

The Taiji guy was the head of HK Wu Taiji community a descendant of the founder of the Wu style Taiji , and as such seemingly only what he was leaning on as “skill”,he probably was in strong belief his position alone was enough to be victorious.

The White crane guy could probably show off nice and powerful looking forms, which for many proves a trap that’s easy to fall for making one believe having combat skill.

Both in their positions could no doubt skillfully handle obedient students, giving false impression of skill, either deliberately or actually in believing.

It’s funny since their culture have the great SunTzu’ writings to draw inspiration and knowledge from - know yourself and know your enemy - however many CMA’s practitioners fall into trap to at best they seem think is strive for - Know yourself but not the enemy, at worst - know neither .

 

[O'Malley]

On a related note, I don't know whether this gentleman could beat a trained MMA competitor but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of this:

 

[_Simon_]

On a related note, I don't know whether this gentleman could beat a trained MMA competitor but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of this:

AWESOME. Would love to train that.. it's actually something I've been exploring and incorporating into my own training (looseness, whip-like techniques, wave-like movement)

 

[O'Malley]

AWESOME. Would love to train that.. it's actually something I've been exploring and incorporating into my own training (looseness, whip-like techniques, wave-like movement)

You might like this video by Hiroo Mochizuki. He's the son of Minoru Mochizuki, a high-ranking karate, judo, aikido and katori shinto ryu master who was asked (twice IIRC) to become the successor of aikido's founder (which involved marrying the master's daughter, quite a commitment!).

Hiroo Mochizuki is a renowned karate master in his own right (one of the first to establish it in France) and he continued his father's work to develop a complete martial art based on karate, judo, aikido and swordwork, with also influences from various Western styles, modern coaching methodologies, etc. It's called Yoseikan Budo, and they have a cool concept of using wave-like movement to power all their arsenal:

Edit: food for thought

 

[windwalker099]

Hiroo Mochizuki is a renowned karate master in his own right (one of the first to establish it in France) and he continued his father's work to develop a complete martial art based on karate, judo, aikido and swordwork, with also influences from various Western styles, modern coaching methodologies, etc.

Does he have a fight record, or any clips of him using his method outside of demonstrations ?

 

[O'Malley]

Does he have a fight record, or any clips of him using his method outside of demonstrations ?

I don't know whether he himself has a fight record but the art has its own full contact fighting circuit. He's 87 now but I would suspect that his sons do compete:

 

[windwalker099]

I don't know whether he himself has a fight record but the art has its own full contact fighting circuit. He's 87 now but I would suspect that his sons do compete:

Which one is his son?

I ask this because, like Chinese styles, that look very different when practiced, they tend to look the same when used in combat.

What I look for are distinctive movements that were practiced or noted in the style.

"Kung Fu Wang's" students are a good example of this; what is trained is used, with distinctive movements of his style shown.

David Chin, a noted hop gar master

some of his students training, although the movements have been modified
what is trained is used

 

[O'Malley]

Which one is his son?



I ask this because, like Chinese styles, that look very different when practiced, they tend to look the same when used in combat.



What I look for are distinctive movements that were practiced or noted in the style.



"Kung Fu Wang's" students are a good example of this; what is trained is used, with distinctive movements of his style shown.

David Chin, a noted hop gar master



some of his students training, although the movements have been modified

what is trained is used

I don't think that his sons are in the video, I was just showing what a YB competition looks like. I see classic karate strikes and judo throws, which are part of YB.

I understand that seeing the distinctive "flavour" of a style is part of the fun, but it may not always be obvious. For example, even an elite fighter can teach a drill that's somewhat contrived and will not really look like that in a fight:

But on the other hand, I understand what you mean by practitioners looking different when they fight from how they train. It may stem from a tendency in traditional Asian MA to use movements to explore concepts about the use of the body, while Western arts have an approach that revolves more around tactics. This may also explain why Western arts tend to be more systematic, with tools and movements that work together towards victory, while in TMA you can see wild variations of the same idea, which may not be applied as is in a live environment.

 

[_Simon_]

You might like this video by Hiroo Mochizuki. He's the son of Minoru Mochizuki, a high-ranking karate, judo, aikido and katori shinto ryu master who was asked (twice IIRC) to become the successor of aikido's founder (which involved marrying the master's daughter, quite a commitment!).

Hiroo Mochizuki is a renowned karate master in his own right (one of the first to establish it in France) and he continued his father's work to develop a complete martial art based on karate, judo, aikido and swordwork, with also influences from various Western styles, modern coaching methodologies, etc. It's called Yoseikan Budo, and they have a cool concept of using wave-like movement to power all their arsenal:

Edit: food for thought

Awesome, thank you so much. Loved the second one, I do think alot about spirals haha. But it's amazing when all things synchronise the compounding effect that occurs. Will watch the first vid soon.