Wu Taiji vs Tibetan White Crane

[windwalker099]

A historical match.
Made famous for many reason's

Tibetan White Crane was at the heart of a major pivot point in Chinese and worldwide popular culture, when in 1954 Chan Hak Fu of Macau faced off against Hong Kong's recently arrived Wu Gongyi (吳公儀) in a wildly popular public match organized for charity and held in Macau.

Master Chan represented not only Grandmaster Ng Siu-Chung's Bak Hok Pai against Grandmaster Wu's Wu-style tai chi. He also represented natives of the south against newcomers from the north, Cantonese speakers vs. Mandarin speakers, external vs. internal kung-fu, modern training (Chan) vs. traditional practice (Wu), Macau (Chan) vs. Hong Kong (Wu), and yes, a Tibetan Buddhist martial art against a Han Chinese Daoist art.[

Both teachers were noted representatives of their respective styles. For practitioners of these styles, are the methods they practiced reflected in their actual usage?"

As for the fighting itself, some might say it reflects the CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) approach rather than the Western boxing approach. Is there such a distinction?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As for the fighting itself, some might say it reflects the CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) approach rather than the Western boxing approach. Is there such a distinction?

What's the difference between boxing and CMA?

In

- boxing, I try to hit you before you can hit me. So, when your fists are flying, my fists are also flying (as showing in your video).
- CMA, I try to control your arm while I hit you. I'll throw a jab and wait for your respond. I then throw another jab and wait for your respond. The moment that you try to block my jab, the moment that I move in (wait, wait, ..., attack).

The CMA "switch hands" make a big difference between boxing and CMA. Since the "switch hands" is completely missing in the fight, I just can't say this is a CMA fight. Taiji uses a lot of "switch hands" such as "ward off", "fetching arm", "step out, deflect, grab, and punch", ...

Is "switch hands" so hard to apply in fighting? You throw a fake punch and bait your opponent to block it. When your opponent blocks your fake punch, your other hand parries his blocking arm and allow your fake punch to be a real punch.

IMO, the "switch hands" is a very safe strategy. When you throw your fake punch, you are not committing on anything. If your opponent doesn't block it, it's just a light jab. In other words, you try to move in when you can feel your opponent's leading arm. People may say "chasing arm" is a bad idea. But only when you know where your opponent's arm is, you can then feel safe.

Example of "switch hands" can be:

 

[Xue Sheng]

A historical match.
Made famous for many reason's

Both teachers were noted representatives of their respective styles. For practitioners of these styles, are the methods they practiced reflected in their actual usage?"

As for the fighting itself, some might say it reflects the CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) approach rather than the Western boxing approach. Is there such a distinction?

Sorry, but My shifu Yang was there.... and at the time it was not as historic as it has been made ourt to be. First no one understood why the older Wu fought and not the younger Wu. The entire thing was billed like the Ali vs Frazier fight.... many where incredibly disapointed and by the time it was done many wanted their money back.

 

[windwalker099]

First no one understood why the older Wu fought and not the younger Wu.

Wasn't it billed as a match organized for charity and held in Macau ?

 

[windwalker099]

The CMA "switch hands" make a big difference between boxing and CMA. Since the "switch hands" is completely missing in the fight, I just can't say this is a CMA fight. Taiji uses a lot of "switch hands" such as "ward off", "fetching arm", "step out, deflect, grab, and punch", ...

Is "switch hands" so hard to apply in fighting? You throw a fake punch and bait your opponent to block it. When your opponent blocks your fake punch, your other hand parries his blocking arm and allow your fake punch to be a real punch.

IMO, the "switch hands" is a very safe strategy.

Maybe the "switch hands" concept doesn't work too well with matched opponents.
It didn't work for me against a skilled opponent.

Not a fan of the method, having learned it in Korea through Plum Flower Mantis, and 7-Star Mantis with
Brenden Lai's group in GG park.

The idea is to overwhelm the opponent with speed using continuous movement. One of the main features of CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) is to be able to use techniques that completely overwhelm the opponent due to their unfamiliarity with the movements or a highly developed skill set using a limited set of movements.

Boxing, or boxing-like styles, have to be more adaptable because they have fewer movements to draw from. These are used in boxing matches with opponents of equal skill, forcing boxers to be able to change and adapt as needed instead of relying on many techniques set to patterns of movements.

I thought the match was interesting with the Tibetan white crane teacher, obviously using many of his movements as trained.
Interesting enough I read some place, Chan Hak Fu, was the teacher of Gorge Long a noted White Crane teacher in San Francisco

Small world...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wasn't it billed as a match organized for charity and held in Macau ?

Nope, it was a challenge match. And not a very good one.

 

[windwalker099]

Nope, it was a challenge match. And not a very good one.

Do you feel both teachers were skilled representatives of their styles?

 

[Same Trick]

Both of them swing their arms quite some, as if they both had taken some beginners classes in tongbeiquan .

It’s known that some of the high level taiji masters back in the days also studied TBQ.

It’s said to prepare for that fight Wu Gongyi took help from Dong Yinjie

 

[windwalker099]

Both of them swing their arms quite some, as if they both had taken some beginners classes in tongbeiquan .

It’s known that some of the high level taiji masters back in the days also studied TBQ.

It’s said to prepare for that fight Wu Gongyi took help from Dong Yinjie

You regard them both as example's of "beginner" level ?

 

[Same Trick]

I’m

Sorry, but My shifu Yang was there.... and at the time it was not as historic as it has been made ourt to be. First no one understood why the older Wu fought and not the younger Wu. The entire thing was billed like the Ali vs Frazier fight.... many where incredibly disapointed and by the time it was done many wanted their money back.

historic it became.

But might have been historic when it happened too, in a sense of arrangement as the pro boxing fight arena style ?

 

[Same Trick]

You regard them both as example's of "beginner" level ?

Yes, of course, as ring fighters they’re beginners, it’s very obvious, one see it clear already when Wu Yingjie enter the ring he looks lost and poorly try to hide that by looking fake confident

 

[windwalker099]

Both teachers were noted representatives of their respective styles. For practitioners of these styles, are the methods they practiced reflected in their actual usage?"

As for the fighting itself, some might say it reflects the CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) approach rather than the Western boxing approach. Is there such a distinction?

Note: respect to both teachers..
the purpose of the post was to elicit what others felt about what they saw mainly from those having familiarity with the arts.
Or CMA in general....

 

[windwalker099]

Yes, of course, as ring fighters they’re beginners, it’s very obvious, one see it clear already when Wu Yingjie enter the ring he looks lost and poorly try to hide that by looking fake confident

Can you point to any CMA used in a ring, used with the distinctive stylistic methods of the style..
utube or Youku

One of Wong’s most popular tales is his return to Guangdong. In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. “Either the challenger was maimed or killed,” noted Chin.

Historically, China had something similar to a boxing ring..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you point to any CMA used in a ring, used with the distinctive stylistic methods of the style..
utube or Youku

In the following clip, within 15 seconds, he made his combo work twice in a role. It proves that "combo" does work if you are good at it.

If his 6 moves combo

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- left jab,
- right underhook,
- knee strike,
- outer hooks,

can work in the ring, the jab, parry, punch 3 moves combo should also work in the ring.

 

[Same Trick]

Can you point to any CMA used in a ring, used with the distinctive stylistic methods of the style..
utube or Youku



Historically, China had something similar to a boxing ring..

As I mentioned tongbeiquan in my previous post. It’s practice that quite so consist of big arm swing methods but while stance quite narrow, this method aim for the practitioner to train and find efficient use of one’s core, when properly ingrained it comes forth in energy efficient but crisp and strong small moves .
TBQ partner drills gives a clue to this.

As for any real fight videos I’m not sure I can find, as we know today in China CMAists that fight enters the sanda competition , both my XYQ and TBQ teachers have students that do so.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You regard them both as example's of "beginner" level ?

The video I put up; Alex has 24-3 under his belt. No sure how many ring fight experience that these 2 persons had in your video.

Can you point to any CMA used in a ring, used with the distinctive stylistic methods of the style..
utube or Youku

In this video, he used "inner hook" successfully to take down his opponent 8 times. It shows his "inner hook" skill.

IMO, CMA try to develop certain skill that can work over and over. In your video, we don't see the same skill that worked over and over. Had they developed any "door guarding skill"? That video doesn't show any.

 

[windwalker099]

Had asked about the histories of the teachers and if they were noted representatives of their styles.

Sources: Chat AI, Wikipedia, various websites

Corrections for historical inaccuracies, or misrepresentations of the teachers' backgrounds are appreciated.

Chan Hak Fu:

was born in the early 20th century in China. From a young age, he showed a keen interest in martial arts. He began his training under various masters, eventually specializing in Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu, a style known for its swift, powerful strikes and defensive techniques.

Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu​

Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu is a martial art that originated in Tibet and was later brought to China. It is characterized by its imitation of the crane's movements, focusing on agility, speed, and precision. This style emphasizes both offensive and defensive techniques, making it a well-rounded martial art. Chan Hak Fu became one of the foremost practitioners of this style, mastering its forms and techniques to a high degree.

During the 2nd World War, he served as a chief instructor of kung fu to the Chinese Air Force personnel attached to the American Air Force then serving in China.
After the war, he settled and taught Kung Fu in Hong Kong.

1954 Macau Match​

One of the most significant events in Chan Hak Fu's career was the 1954 challenge match in Macau against Wu Gongyi, a master of Wu-style Tai Chi Chuan. This match was highly publicized and drew considerable attention from the media and martial arts community. The match was seen as a clash between different martial arts philosophies and styles—Tibetan White Crane's external, forceful techniques versus Tai Chi's internal, softer approaches.

Wu Gongyi (吳公儀):

born in 1900, was a prominent figure in the world of Chinese martial arts, particularly known for his contributions to Wu-style Tai Chi Chuan (太極拳). He was the eldest son of Wu Jianquan (吳鑑泉), the founder of the Wu style of Tai Chi Chuan. Wu Gongyi was instrumental in spreading and popularizing this martial art form both in China and internationally.

One of the most notable events in Wu Gongyi's life was the 1954 challenge match against Chan Hak Fu, a master of Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu, in Macau.

1954 Macau Match​

In 1954, the fifty-three-year-old Wu was publicly challenged to a fight by the thirty-something Tibetan White Crane stylist Chen Kefu (陈克夫). The contest was arranged and fought in Macau in January, 1954. The ring was set up as if for a Western boxing match, and there were many rules prohibiting various techniques being used by the fighters; kicks, throws or joint locks, for example.

The contest lasted not quite two rounds. During the second round, the judges ended the fight, declaring the contest a draw. This was done to ensure that there was no loss of face to either party.
Both Wu and Chen invited the opposing sides to celebratory banquets. The contest was reported in detail by the media of the day, and resulted in many new students for the Wu family school, including a martial art teaching contract for Wu Ta-k'uei from the Kowloon police.[1]

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do you feel both teachers were skilled representatives of their styles?

Do I feel, well I was not there, but my answer is no. My Shifu was there, he never commented directly on the white crane guy, but he thought the entire spectacle was pathetic, and was entirely unimpressed with the Wu side of things, as was his Shifu...


This video is paraded out every year or 2 by someone as an example of two different things and only those 2 different things

1) to show how great CMA is
2) How awful CMA is

And it is not an example of either....it is only an example of that one, rather sad encounter

 

[windwalker099]

IMO, CMA try to develop certain skill that can work over and over. In your video, we don't see the same skill that worked over and over. Had they developed any "door guarding skill"? That video doesn't show any.

Both teachers were noted for their skill sets...
The basic question was if the skill set usage was reflected in the 1954 match..

 

[windwalker099]

Do I feel, well I was not there, but my answer is no. My Shifu was there, he never commented directly on the white crane guy, but he thought the entire spectacle was pathetic, and was entirely unimpressed with the Wu side of things, as was his Shifu...

When I first saw this, I also wondered about both teachers. After talking with a noted Hop Gar master, he asked for my thoughts and then said, paraphrased, "It's fighting, how do you think it's supposed to look?"

This conversation changed my perspective, though it seems the Taiji teacher was not following the basic principles of his style.
The TWC teacher, was using many of the TWC movements and principles...

Had asked about the difference between western and CMA approaches..
IMO of what is shown, a typical CMA approach of trying to run over the opponent.

Not often seen in western boxing matches with skill sets evenly matched...
between the opponents.