WT vs MMA stand up ONLY

Nabakatsu

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So, let's say wing chun/tsun/tzun, ect ect, were to step into a ring with a competent mma guy. If it stayed purely stand up, what do you think the result would be? I'm talking a guy who has trained wt for a good 5-10 years, same for the mma guy. What problems do you see the wt practitioner having? vice versa for the mma guy?
please share all thoughts pertaining to this, think outside the box, think inside the box, let's just get a bit of a hot topic going in this place!
Let the games beginnnn!
 

dungeonworks

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So, let's say wing chun/tsun/tzun, ect ect, were to step into a ring with a competent mma guy. If it stayed purely stand up, what do you think the result would be? I'm talking a guy who has trained wt for a good 5-10 years, same for the mma guy. What problems do you see the wt practitioner having? vice versa for the mma guy?
please share all thoughts pertaining to this, think outside the box, think inside the box, let's just get a bit of a hot topic going in this place!
Let the games beginnnn!

What you describe is Muay Thai with MMA gloves on....and that would be fun to watch!
 

profesormental

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Agreed.

Can you do throws, like in San Da? With MMA gloves or no gloves?

Anyway, the rules dictate the strategy of a sporting match. And it is mainly up to the fighters attributes the way they could execute that strategy.

So it would be an entertaining event.
 
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Nabakatsu

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Let's just say, that it's WT vs any form of standup, be it boxing mixed with tkd, or karate with some hung ga, you name it, both folks have equal ground game, so they want to keep it on the feet. From this point of view, let's have some ideas!
 

l_uk3y

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Hmm. Still so many variables even if you pretend neither fighter wants to hit the ground, both have same duration of training.

I think it would be interesting assuming both were equally skilled in their own system mostly due to the very different approaches.

For this to be an effective discussion you have to imagine the mma fighter not only not wanting to fight on the ground but to imagine they aren't interested in stand up wrestling and clinching either. Hence this becomes well. Kickboxing vs Wing Chun.

I would put my vote down for MMA because it has the rule set on its side and people train for the ruleset. For every rule that you take out I will give a point back to Wing Chun until the point where I will vote for Wing Chun when all illegal strikes are allowed but still no ground fighting.

That's my thoughts anyway.
 

geezer

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So, let's say wing chun/tsun/tzun, ect ect, were to step into a ring with a competent mma guy. If it stayed purely stand up, what do you think the result would be? I'm talking a guy who has trained wt for a good 5-10 years, same for the mma guy. What problems do you see the wt practitioner having? vice versa for the mma guy?
please share all thoughts pertaining to this, think outside the box, think inside the box, let's just get a bit of a hot topic going in this place!
Let the games beginnnn!

OK, my first problem is with rules that don't allow throws, sweeps, etc. and following your opponent to the ground. Can you imagine Emin (or any other good WT/WC/VT fighter) who wouldn't close, throw or sweep and follow his opponent down, punching and elbowing the tar out of him? And what is the point of training offensive "anti-grappling" if you can't sucker the other guy into trying to grapple or shoot.

So, I'd have rules that keep it as free as possible and let you take to the ground for ten seconds before you break. That way, whether you are the WT/WC/VT guy or the MMA guy, you can at least benefit from slamming the other guy down and having 10 seconds to exploit your advantage, without turning it into a ground-fighting bout.

Now as to who would win, right now my bets would be on the MMA guy. Funny answer from a 'Chunner you say? Not at all. It's just that MMA has a much bigger pool of really tough, well conditioned and experienced fighters to choose from. Most chunners are basically hobbyists like myself, or at best, spirited amateurs. The really tough guys like Emin Boztepe and Victor Gutierrez are rare. And they are getting past the age at which they would compete.

Still, the WT/WC/VT system, properly trained, is a terrifically effective approach to combat. And, if there were a lot of fights like this, I would expect organizations like the EWTO and EBMAS to start producing some great fighters very quickly. And, boy wouldn't it be great to watch!
 

hunt1

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WT loses 85% of the time. WC or VT loses 15% to 80% of the time depending on the version. TWC loses 50%.
 

melry88

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I do not think it really is too much of a valid topic.

It is impossible to try to pit style verse style or mixed styles because you are not taking into consideration that no matter what you do you will never have two fighters completely even.

Likewise you are talking rules and timed rounds. As far as I am concerned Wing Chun Kuen is used to end the fight quickly without rules. I would not want to stand there and go toe to toe with an opponent over a long period of time.

Also why would you ask stand up only? Wing Chun Kuen is a complete system with grappling applications built right into everything we do. Your instructor either explains the grappling applications or he/she does know them.
 
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Nabakatsu

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We just covered the anti grappling stuff from micheal casey at a seminar last weekend, I'm just curious about the stand up aspect because I am most interested in it. I am essentially curious just about any form of martial art, be it multiple or one, vs wing tzun, I want to dissect as many potential issues a WT man could have, and what could be done to adapt to them.
I like the idea geezer has come up with, where sweeps and clinching, take downs are allowed, but the ground has a 10 second time limited, pretty much let's call it mma, without submissions.
 

geezer

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I do not think it really is too much of a valid topic.

It is impossible to try to pit style verse style or mixed styles because you are not taking into consideration that no matter what you do you will never have two fighters completely even.

Likewise you are talking rules and timed rounds. As far as I am concerned Wing Chun Kuen is used to end the fight quickly without rules...

Melry--I think the po was more about imagining what kind of contest you could have that would allow for a good contest between a Chunner or similar stand-up stylist and MMA guys. At least that's what I was thinking about. I think such contests could really help to promote interest in WC, as I'm convinced that good Chunners could put up a respectable show, especially as they got more experience in the ring. And, it would be good to learn from areas of weaknness as well. If it turns out that the chunner gets creamed every time... then it's back to the drawing-board to build a better gameplan.

As for Hunt's comment, how can you throw out percentages when no public contests have taken place? And regarding lineages or organizations, I've seen such inconsistencies within the groups mentioned, that any generalization seems nearly useless. Even the names or initials are confusing. I belong to a "VT" group, but it sprang out of a "WT" group. And WT could mean the local group in my area which never spars and is pretty shakey in my opinion, or it could mean EBMAS WT which is much more fighting oriented, or it could mean something else altogether. I guess Hunt just wanted to cheer for his side, and that's fine by me.
 

Andrew Green

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I think Wing Chun is just too stylistically bound to do well in that situation. The ranges are just off. MMA / Boxing / Muay Thai can attack from a longer range and will clinch when it gets close. For a Wing Chun fighter to force that middle range and avoid a clinch, that would take a pretty large skill gap IMO.
 

zepedawingchun

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I think Wing Chun is just too stylistically bound to do well in that situation. The ranges are just off. MMA / Boxing / Muay Thai can attack from a longer range and will clinch when it gets close. For a Wing Chun fighter to force that middle range and avoid a clinch, that would take a pretty large skill gap IMO.

What is this link? I watched the fights and is that supposed to be Wing Chun? And what Jimmy was throwing in the second fight didn't resemble WC in the least. I have to say, if any of my students fought like that (unfocused, arms swinging all over the place, no semblence of structure, looking like unskilled street-fighters), I'd kick their butts. There was no footwork, no deflections, angling, attempting to trap (hands or feet), just brawling. Everyone was just swinging for the fence. If those guys were sparring, it looked pretty bad. And if they were actually fighting, it was even worse. No wonder WC/WT/VT has a bad rep and everyone laughs at us.

Not only do my students do chi sao, they also spar regularly, train from the clinch, and do ground-work. It's the best way to learn how to handle the situation.
 

geezer

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I think Wing Chun is just too stylistically bound to do well in that situation. The ranges are just off. MMA / Boxing / Muay Thai can attack from a longer range and will clinch when it gets close. For a Wing Chun fighter to force that middle range and avoid a clinch, that would take a pretty large skill gap IMO.

This is why more fighting would benefit WC. If you are right, then people would adapt. As it is, people just argue.
 

dungeonworks

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What is this link? I watched the fights and is that supposed to be Wing Chun? And what Jimmy was throwing in the second fight didn't resemble WC in the least. I have to say, if any of my students fought like that (unfocused, arms swinging all over the place, no semblence of structure, looking like unskilled street-fighters), I'd kick their butts. There was no footwork, no deflections, angling, attempting to trap (hands or feet), just brawling. Everyone was just swinging for the fence. If those guys were sparring, it looked pretty bad. And if they were actually fighting, it was even worse. No wonder WC/WT/VT has a bad rep and everyone laughs at us.

Not only do my students do chi sao, they also spar regularly, train from the clinch, and do ground-work. It's the best way to learn how to handle the situation.

Zepeda, I do not know how familiar you are with the Fight Quest show, but these guys only had 5 full days of training in each style they featured on that show, and that is the Wing Tsun episode. The second guy is Jimmy Smith and he is a professional MMA fighter and resorted to Boxing for the most part in his bout, so there in lye's one example of what WT vs other stand up. He lost the decision due to his lack of WT structure, but would have won unanimously had it been boxing. Besides, I believe they both fought begginners as well, which may add to the reason it ended up being a chain punching contest.

I would be grateful for just ONE CLIP of non choreographed Wing Chun in action.....in the sense that the majority of Wing Chunner's could agree that it was actual Wing Chun and not say something like....I dunno, the usual disections of WC/WT/VT in the YouTube comments....like "That ain't real Chun! His left big toe was 2 degrees to the left too far and his left nipple was hard while the other was not! That was just brawling and why the other guy won!".....that type of stuff! Every time a Chunner does try to goto the ring or cage, there is this instant mindset amongst many chunners that cause this hyper critical of technique and I doubt the critics even been in a real fight before or seen one up close in real life.

Just goto YouTube and see some of Alan Orr's or Aaron Baum's clips and read the comments and you will see what I mean. I got mad respect for Sifu Orr and his crew for training, testing, adapting, and trying some more.
 

yak sao

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[I would be grateful for just ONE CLIP of non choreographed Wing Chun in action.....in the sense that the majority of Wing Chunner's could agree that it was actual Wing Chun and not say something like....I dunno, the usual disections of WC/WT/VT in the YouTube comments....like "That ain't real Chun! His left big toe was 2 degrees to the left too far and his left nipple was hard while the other was not! That was just brawling and why the other guy won!".....that type of stuff! Every time a Chunner does try to goto the ring or cage, there is this instant mindset amongst many chunners that cause this hyper critical of technique and I doubt the critics even been in a real fight before or seen one up close in real life.

Just goto YouTube and see some of Alan Orr's or Aaron Baum's clips and read the comments and you will see what I mean. I got mad respect for Sifu Orr and his crew for training, testing, adapting, and trying some more.[/quote]



How many WC/WT/VT practicioners does it take to change a light bulb?....

10....one to change the bulb and 9 to say they could have done it better.


As for WT vs MMA, I would say if it were a street fight a sound WT man would hand the MMA guy his a$$, but in the ring I would have to give it to MMA beause of superior conditioning.
 
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Nabakatsu

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So, with proper conditioning, and an equal knowledge of ground fighting/clinch work, you'd give a WT man the edge? do you think the long range attacks and their desire to keep you outside of WT's optimal range be a problem? I feel like the clinch is more favorable towards a WT man.
One thing that concerns me is, I'm a tall skinny guy, I feel a short wide person would give me a lot of trouble, hard to cut the angle when they are as wide as a barn, you'd be running right into a hit! but going up the middle with gloves on could be hard to finish it fast and not get some huge haymaker, hard to receive that much energy on your way back from a punch I would imagine. Thoughts? :p
 

myusername

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Why would this happen and what would it show?

Imagine what would happen if you had a wing chun guy facing a MMA guy but both fighters were only allowed to hop!

Who would win if you faced a BJJ guy against a Mauy Thai fighter but only allowed them to walk backwards!

Imagine a fight between a TKD guy and a Krav Maga guy but neither of them were allowed to use any other part of their body except their belly!

I am being silly for fun rather than to be nasty so I don't want to offend but I am genuinely confused as to what would be the point of pitting one art against another but not allowing one of the arts to use all of its tools and skills. It wouldn't be MMA if it was stand up only.
 

hunt1

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Geezer its to easy to yank your chain. You have filled up on so much WT Kool Aid it must squirt from your ears if you are hugged.:drinky:

3 very general types of wing chun

1. Shoulder width stance weight on back leg .some have slant body,locked body for body. Use straight line and/or triangle. Shifting on heels for the most part. Punches coming from shoulder. This style will have a low % of success against a competent MMA, MT or boxer.

2. Stance wider then shoulders more balaned weight distribution. Use straight line and/or triangle. Shift is not focused on heel. This style will do better depending upon how they use the waist area some are more locked. Free floating will do better those that have knees loose will do better. Those that use circle will do best. Those that punch from chest will do best.

3. Use shoulder width stance but can do same thing those with wider stance can do with their stance Loose body loose knees can perform linking and unlinking as matter of course. Use energy in horizontal and vertical circles. Foot work is soft and fast foot uses K1 point. Punch comes from the heart. They will do the best overall.
 

hunt1

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myusername it makes sense and is actually done. it is a fair way to compare. It means that the wing chun man is conceding that if we spar and you take me down I lose. Wing Chun doesn't have ground fighting per say. Original styles do have some methods to get up once you have been thrown but nothing like BJJ or Catch.

Here in Albuquerque we spar guys from the MMA school on the next block. We throw sweep take down etc but once on the ground just stand back up. This is when we are comparing stand up. Those with the skill and desire to continue on the ground do so if they wish. I teach WC . I send my guys to good grappler's to learn grappling.
 

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