World Jiu-Jitsu Champion Killed

JowGaWolf

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Just came across this news.
This news makes me think of sports vs self defense when people wonder what the difference is.

There are multiple stories about what happened but the end result is the same a lost of life at age 33.
 

Steve

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Just came across this news.
This news makes me think of sports vs self defense when people wonder what the difference is.

There are multiple stories about what happened but the end result is the same a lost of life at age 33.
Saw that yesterday. Link below for more information. Tragic.

 

Alan0354

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You can be good in TMA and can be shot too, what's your point?

Forget about guns, when I have my cane in my hand, it's going to make a huge difference even facing a TMA or JJ guy.

Even a pocket knife. AND NO, I am not going to wave the knife in my leading hand for people to grab and tackle. I hold it with the other hand close to my body and stick out the leading hand to bate them and then stick it with the other hand.

I go out with my cane all the time, with knife in my pocket in case if I lose my cane, then a can of pepper spray in my other pocket if all else failed. I am thinking about applying a conceal carry gun permit.
 
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Steve

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Yeah, I don't agree that this tells us anything at all about sport vs self defense, other than that he appears to have successfully subdued the guy. He made a judgment call in the moment, that the other person was 'calm.'

This was just a senseless act.
 

Alan0354

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Facing a weapon is a totally different dimension.....IF the person knows how to use the weapon.

I assume we are all talking about bare knuckles on this part of the forum. We have weapon sub-forum hear that I go to regarding my stick fight.

I spend half of my "aerobics" on practicing stick fight, that's my ultimate self defense, forget bare knuckle in real life. Thing is I think a lot of people carry weapon like cane, knife etc but not spending time practicing. That is even more dangerous than not carrying anything. Last thing you want is let the other guy grab your weapon and use it against you.

Just a simple cane makes a world of difference. You cannot compare a heavy punch to the head vs a heavy stick whacking the head!!! Also like my cane has at least 20" reach advantage.
 
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JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

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You can be good in TMA and can be shot too, what's your point?
Point is that there's a between sports and self defense. TMA has sports aspects. It's not a TMA vs MMA issue

Sometimes we think we can fight or know that we can win a fight. Self defense is about taking the best path that will insure your safety. Sometimes we forget that. This is a reminder not to forget. That's the point.
 
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Steve

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Point is that there's a between sports and self defense. TMA has sports aspects. It's not a TMA vs MMA issue

Someone we think we can fight or know that we can win a fight. Sky defense is about taking
I don't think you're being as clear as you think.
 

Alan0354

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Point is that there's a between sports and self defense. TMA has sports aspects. It's not a TMA vs MMA issue

Sometimes we think we can fight or know that we can win a fight. Self defense is about taking the best path that will insure your safety. Sometimes we forget that. This is a reminder not to forget. That's the point.
Oh yeh, it's very clear with me. I never even think about kicking and punching when I walk out on the street. It's all about stick fight for self defense. Didn't even cross my mind!!! I am talking here more as sports for self defense using MA since I have been into it before. But notice I repeatedly calling it "aerobics" all this time. It's more being the aerobic side of my exercise. Nothing more.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Oh yeh, it's very clear with me. I never even think about kicking and punching when I walk out on the street. It's all about stick fight for self defense. Didn't even cross my mind!!! I am talking here more as sports for self defense using MA since I have been into it before. But notice I repeatedly calling it "aerobics" all this time. It's more being the aerobic side of my exercise. Nothing more.
Sometimes the better path is to talk people down. I grew up in an area where it was common for people to go to their car and get a gun. Some would even go home and come back to shoot the person they were mad at. Because of that people from my area were more likely to try to talk people down without hurting the other guy's ego. When there are fights they beat the guy up then leave a few minutes later.

Not saying any of this would help in this situation. Just saying that getting shot was a real thing. Skate rink was the best place to get shot followed by the club and then the basketball court.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Both breaks my heart and really pishes me off.
It's always sad issue for me. It happens more than most realize. Growing up I didn't think I would live beyond 25 because of stuff like this. The stats were against me. Glad to be getting old.
 

Alan0354

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Sometimes the better path is to talk people down. I grew up in an area where it was common for people to go to their car and get a gun. Some would even go home and come back to shoot the person they were mad at. Because of that people from my area were more likely to try to talk people down without hurting the other guy's ego. When there are fights they beat the guy up then leave a few minutes later.

Not saying any of this would help in this situation. Just saying that getting shot was a real thing. Skate rink was the best place to get shot followed by the club and then the basketball court.
OR avoid those places as much as possible. Ha ha, I don't go the skating ring or club etc. I don't even think about fighting and self defense until early last year when a lot of older Chinese are being attacked for no reason. That's when I start practicing stick fight. Just happen to see this part of the forum, might as well join in since I've been into if for a few years. If you were older Chinese, you have to be careful everywhere.

I did a lot of shooting and have over 20 guns all these years(still have all of them). I was quite a good shooter before, we went to the range both Sat and Sun every week for years practicing. I even got a 2nd place in competition one time before. I just never talk about it here as this is not the place. I do join gun forum also, but I don't visit there that often. My issue is not whether I can defend myself with a gun, my issue is whether I can live with killing someone even though it's justifiable. That's when I stopped carrying a gun over 20 years ago.
 

isshinryuronin

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Lo made a fatal mistake. In sport, once you subdue the opponent the fight is over. Not so in real combat. The fight is not over till the opponent is effectively incapacitated, restrained or otherwise unable to continue to attack. Lo should have checked for weapons before releasing him to ensure the attack could not continue.

Sport and self-defense really do have different mindsets as well as physical realities. There is a good deal of cross-over, but also a lot that is not transferrable. We should keep in mind the differences.

It seems BJJ lost one of their greatest. A shame he had to go out by a coward's hand.
 

Shakya

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This event also brings into focus this idea about martial arts "evolving" to meet modern standards/contexts.

The reason traditional east asian MA are often branded as old fashioned, 'crap,' unwilling to evolve, or just fake, seems to be this very potential - of someone pulling a gun on you. And so those traditional MA apparently fell out of favour not because they were suddenly shown up for lacking insight or practical experience or knowledge - but because guns made them redundant.

The irony in Lo's case is that BJJ often frames itself as a modern 'westernised/improved/evolved' version of its far eastern jiu-jitsu ancestor - whilst at the same time being quite dismissive of other far eastern MA as "bullshido" when it comes to fighting. But here we see BJJ seemingly falling prey to the very mechanism that caused kungfu, FMA, etc., to appear 'crap' for modern day self-protection....

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Untitled179_20220809104209.png
 

Alan0354

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This event also brings into focus this idea about martial arts "evolving" to meet modern standards/contexts.

The reason traditional east asian MA are often branded as old fashioned, 'crap,' unwilling to evolve, or just fake, seems to be this very potential - of someone pulling a gun on you. And so those traditional MA apparently fell out of favour not because they were suddenly shown up for lacking insight or practical experience or knowledge - but because guns made them redundant.

The irony in Lo's case is that BJJ often frames itself as a modern 'westernised/improved/evolved' version of its far eastern jiu-jitsu ancestor - whilst at the same time being quite dismissive of other far eastern MA as "bullshido" when it comes to fighting. But here we see BJJ seemingly falling prey to the very mechanism that caused kungfu, FMA, etc., to appear 'crap' for modern day self-protection....

View attachment 28770

View attachment 28771
You are putting two non related issues together. Gun makes all fighting skills irrelevant, it has nothing to do with all the other stuffs you said. Guns have been around long before that.
 
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drop bear

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This event also brings into focus this idea about martial arts "evolving" to meet modern standards/contexts.

The reason traditional east asian MA are often branded as old fashioned, 'crap,' unwilling to evolve, or just fake, seems to be this very potential - of someone pulling a gun on you. And so those traditional MA apparently fell out of favour not because they were suddenly shown up for lacking insight or practical experience or knowledge - but because guns made them redundant.

The irony in Lo's case is that BJJ often frames itself as a modern 'westernised/improved/evolved' version of its far eastern jiu-jitsu ancestor - whilst at the same time being quite dismissive of other far eastern MA as "bullshido" when it comes to fighting. But here we see BJJ seemingly falling prey to the very mechanism that caused kungfu, FMA, etc., to appear 'crap' for modern day self-protection....

View attachment 28770

View attachment 28771

People who carry guns still get shot.
 

Shakya

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You are putting two non related issues together. Gun makes all fighting skills irrelevant, it has nothing to do with all the other stuffs you said. It's the same even gun is not in the picture.

Maybe I didn't make the point well enough.

My point was that after guns arrived, much of the old traditional MA practices and knowledge were discarded and forgotten - during the advent of 'wild west' type scenarios (which Lo was pretty much involved in - it was straight out of a cowboy movie, wasn't it!).

This loss of previously evolved MA practice and knowledge happened to the art of the British longbow also, for example. The longbow was being used alongside guns for a while - firing 12 - 24 arrows per minute. Now it is a lost art, however.

Nobody denies the historical effectiveness of the British longbow, though - but plenty of accusations of "bullshido" are regularly aimed at other traditional martial arts - most often arts from the far east. Yet it seems that this is only because, like the longbow, those arts have been forgotten and just need to be rediscovered.

However, BJJ fanatics often claim that BJJ is "a new evolution" from modern, superior western fighters, and that, for example, the traditional Chinese art of monkey boxing or snake style gongfu, was an empty dance lacking any practical potential.

I'm saying here that BJJ has most likely rediscovered what monkey boxing and snake style gongfu was practicing to good effect. It's just that the arrival of the gun, as you say, made/makes all fighting arts irrelevant, and so the Chinese just gave up on all that stuff (not to mention many masters were killed - by guns(!) - during the Boxer Rebellion).

What is more, in places where bullies can carry concealed weapons, BJJ is just as redundant and 'unevolved' as monkey boxing or snake style kungfu 仄 - no MA can beat a gun.

But BJJ promotes itself as "The Ultimate" fighting system - perhaps now coupled with muay thai to be extended into MMA, with MMA practioners buying into the BJJ "ultimate system that makes you invincible" - allowing you to restrain and bully anyone you want with impunity - like how Khabib bullied McGregor and his coach, and taught them all a lesson.

So what just happened is a big wake-up call to that whole 'industry.'

Any nerd with a gun and is quickest on the draw is in fact "the ultimate fighter" 仄. You can call them a coward, but you can also call someone who risks their life over a bottle of beer a coward - for not having faced and mastered their ego enough to be able to manage and de-escalate such a situation appropriately.

Big cats never get into ego fights - they understand it's not worth risking their ability to hunt for prey.

It's only humans that are foolish enough to risk their life functionality - or even their whole life - over something as trivial as a bottle of beer.

Some might say that in this context, BJJ is 'less evolved' than traditional MA that take competitive ego and the risk of conflict (as well as lethal weapons being carried) seriously.

In every Jackie Chan movie, he's always saying, "I don't want any trouble!". MMA fanatics laugh his MA off as "bullshido" - old fashioned and unevolved. But I bet if Lo could come back and do it all again, he'd pay more attention to Jackie Chan's traditional Kungfu vibe.

Alan, as you said above - you don't want to have someone's death on your hands - in self defense, using a gun. It's that spirit, I think, that is the true traditional MA spirit - to avoid trouble of any sort, because the wild west is still happening, and 'fighting' has many forms, strategies, and potentially lethal risks. It's just not worth taking the risk - and especially not in a bar in Brazil(!).
 

Shakya

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People who carry guns still get shot.
But who is alive and who is dead in world champion martial artist Lo's case?

The guy with the gun 仄 - who sounds like he is much less of an athlete and 'master' than Lo.

Even in UK, which has super strict laws that prevent you from carrying anything other than an umbrella to defend yourself with, it hosts Europe's 'knife capital' - Glasgow.

And London has its own fair share of knife-carrying street thugs.

Is BJJ (perhaps plus muay thai - as MMA) really the "most modern evolved" ultimate fighting strategy for the modern era?

It seems not, and Lo's unfortunate fate seems to highlight that aspect.

Perhaps the Gracies have a lot to answer for - to Lo's family on this topic.

This cult of ultimate fighting prowess that BJJ indulges is potentially a dangerous game - a game that the Chinese gave up many decades ago now. And you might say that that was a wise decision.
 

Alan0354

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Maybe I didn't make the point well enough.

My point was that after guns arrived, much of the old traditional MA practices and knowledge were discarded and forgotten - during the advent of 'wild west' type scenarios (which Lo was pretty much involved in - it was straight out of a cowboy movie, wasn't it!).

This loss of previously evolved MA practice and knowledge happened to the art of the British longbow also, for example. The longbow was being used alongside guns for a while - firing 12 - 24 arrows per minute. Now it is a lost art, however.

Nobody denies the historical effectiveness of the British longbow, though - but plenty of accusations of "bullshido" are regularly aimed at other traditional martial arts - most often arts from the far east. Yet it seems that this is only because, like the longbow, those arts have been forgotten and just need to be rediscovered.

However, BJJ fanatics often claim that BJJ is "a new evolution" from modern, superior western fighters, and that, for example, the traditional Chinese art of monkey boxing or snake style gongfu, was an empty dance lacking any practical potential.

I'm saying here that BJJ has most likely rediscovered what monkey boxing and snake style gongfu was practicing to good effect. It's just that the arrival of the gun, as you say, made/makes all fighting arts irrelevant, and so the Chinese just gave up on all that stuff (not to mention many masters were killed - by guns(!) - during the Boxer Rebellion).

What is more, in places where bullies can carry concealed weapons, BJJ is just as redundant and 'unevolved' as monkey boxing or snake style kungfu 仄 - no MA can beat a gun.

But BJJ promotes itself as "The Ultimate" fighting system - perhaps now coupled with muay thai to be extended into MMA, with MMA practioners buying into the BJJ "ultimate system that makes you invincible" - allowing you to restrain and bully anyone you want with impunity - like how Khabib bullied McGregor and his coach, and taught them all a lesson.

So what just happened is a big wake-up call to that whole 'industry.'

Any nerd with a gun and is quickest on the draw is in fact "the ultimate fighter" 仄. You can call them a coward, but you can also call someone who risks their life over a bottle of beer a coward - for not having faced and mastered their ego enough to be able to manage and de-escalate such a situation appropriately.

Big cats never get into ego fights - they understand it's not worth risking their ability to hunt for prey.

It's only humans that are foolish enough to risk their life functionality - or even their whole life - over something as trivial as a bottle of beer.

Some might say that in this context, BJJ is 'less evolved' than traditional MA that take competitive ego and the risk of conflict (as well as lethal weapons being carried) seriously.

In every Jackie Chan movie, he's always saying, "I don't want any trouble!". MMA fanatics laugh his MA off as "bullshido" - old fashioned and unevolved. But I bet if Lo could come back and do it all again, he'd pay more attention to Jackie Chan's traditional Kungfu vibe.

Alan, as you said above - you don't want to have someone's death on your hands - in self defense, using a gun. It's that spirit, I think, that is the true traditional MA spirit - to avoid trouble of any sort, because the wild west is still happening, and 'fighting' has many forms, strategies, and potentially lethal risks. It's just not worth taking the risk - and especially not in a bar in Brazil(!).
Gun is gun, it's a totally different subject from MA. I think what you are talking about people talking down CMA mainly because of the result of UFC and other MMA competitions. BJJ was once dominated the scene in the early 90s, but MMA improved and now you don't hear people praising BJJ like back in the 90s.

I don't know what people in the BJJ community said, but Royce Gracie did NOT dominate UFC that long, he got his butt handed to him over 10 years ago already by Matt Huges. In this modern age, MA evolve very fast, one cannot hold onto the old stuffs from long time ago. Bruce Lee came onto the scene over 50 years ago combining boxing, TKD and WC, taking the best of each and really dominated the scene. He literally started the kick boxing. Then in the early 90s, Royce Gracie and his BJJ shocked the world MA scene destroying all the striking MAs. But that did not last, wrestling and others soon came in. Then people combine those and striking together to become MMA. As good as Bruce Lee, I doubted he last 1 minute in UFC fight.

Even MMA is improving everyday. I can watch a fight and tell pretty much what era it was from because the way they fight in UFC is very very different even a few short years apart. MMA literally combined the best of a few together, namely Muy Thai, BJJ, wrestling making up the major part, then a little from different style. Like they use WC front step kick to the knee, it's very common in the fights. The old style MA really need to open their mind, be humble and start looking inward to improve if they want to keep up with the new world. It's a different world, no room for trash talk, get into the octagon and win some fights, people will take notice. No talking is needed.
 

Shakya

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Gun is gun, it's a totally different subject from MA.
I'm talking about fighting, though. And there's such thing as a gun fight, right?

Guns play a role in 'fighting' in society - and a gun played a role in the fight that Lo got involved in.

Sometimes someone (or both fighters) might pull a gun, but then people agree to settle things with their fists, for example. But then if the guy with a gun is losing the fight, he might pull the gun again. So guns are blended in to 'fighting' seamlessly, I think, and cannot be removed from any Street fight equation/strategy - just like a hidden knife cannot be.

Guns, in the advent of the wild west and equivalents all around the world (duelling with pistols, for example - a duel is a fight, right?), changed the whole nature of how people fight in society (especially in America today - as JowGaWolf mentioned - for example, you might insult someone and they'll go home to get their gun and then come back out to find you).

So 'fighting on the streets' in the modern world involves guns (and of course knives), and thus any kind of "ultimate" fighting system - MMA or whatever, that postures as the "ultimate," needs to take that into account, don't you think?

Or are we just defining fighting on the streets here as the sporty kind of fighting with rules and a ref who jumps in - and so now training for defending yourself on the streets should always exclude knives, sticks, or any other weapons like guns?

That seems impractical because what if it's a 'knife fight' between two thugs? It's not a "fight" anymore? And a 'gun fight' is not a "fight" anymore?

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your definition of a fight here - it seems you just want a fight to never include a bar stool being thrown, or a bottle being broken and thrust at someone's throat?

That's not the real world, my friend 仄.

In my view of MA, it's all primarily for self defense, and good self defense requires a mind set that keeps ALL POTENTIAL THREATS that can arise in mind.

BJJ guys often recognise that on the streets someone like Lo can get soccer-kicked in the head when grappling on the ground in a bar. That's game over for him when that happens - so why not also remain aware of when someone brings a knife to a bar fight - just like when bringing a knife to a gun fight...?

It's all fighting in my view, and one most stay aware of the risks one is taking.
The old style MA really need to open their mind, be humble and start looking inward to improve if they want to keep up with the new world.
Yeah, so this is what I'm talking about.

You are saying MMA, with its sporty MA combination for non-lethal cooperative (most often respectful career athlete) fighting methods is "improved" more than, say, monkey style kungfu, which was designed to be BRUTAL on the streets...

And even though a BJJ world champ just got killed in a street fight by a much less skilled opponent, arts like BJJ are what is making MMA more "improved" and part of a "new world" of improved street fighting ability?

That doesn't make sense to me...

As people have already posted above - what happens in the octagon and on the streets is very different in some fundamental and profound ways. Don't get caught up in the BJJ-fuelled hype (that started the whole UFC thing) - because that might be even the reason why Lo is dead right now.

get into the octagon and win some fights
Who are you talking to? The guy who fought and then killed Lo?

He doesn't need to - he has a gun 仄 - THAT is the "ultimate" modern street fighting art, and second to that, knife and stick fighting - which traditional (old) Filipino MA is more suited to than any of this modern MMA stuff.

And any MA that looks to be aware of and use a knife or stick - FMA, for example, can't get into the octagon for obvious reasons. Even HEMA is more modern and practical than MMA - and that stuff is HISTORICAL, lol.

You don't seem to be able to distinguish between an octagon 'fight' (cooperative - respectful, non-lethal, rules, ref, etc.), and a street fight - broken bottles, knives, guns, potentially lethal, no ref, no rules...

In your eyes, martial arts aren't primarily sports, are they?
This seems to be the perspective that got Lo killed for a couple of dollars' worth of beer. Please be careful out there .
 
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