Wolf pack training

[OULobo]

I once attended a seminar with an instructor that I respect and he mentioned "wolf pack" practice. This was training involving a group of people attacking just one or two opponents. The training was focused on helping the multiple attackers. The idea was that it takes training to learn how attack using the advantages of numbers at hand and how to interact well with other members of the group to avoid injuring them and to make the most efficient attacks on the opponent.

This was a realization of sorts. Due to the defensive and "one on one" or "me (one) against them (many)" mentality of most popular arts, the idea of "one of many against one" seems to be a lost tactic. The focus is always on the defender. Despite the mention of the cliche in MA movies where people attack one at a time, it seems to me, that without training or at least experience, people do tend to attack one at a time.

Questions:

Is this a valuble skill that is being neglected?

Soes anyone else have much experience with these type of tactics?

Is it possible that this is a less popular skill because it is seen as unfair/dishonorable or too aggressive/not a self-DEFENSE skill?

 

[Zepp]

I think defending yourself against a "pack" is definitely a self-defense skill that makes this drill worth practicing.

As for the attacking pack, while they're not practicing self-defense, I can think of at least one practical use for it.

Howabout a person having a violent, psycotic espisode from a hallucinogenic drug? Police need to know how to work together to subdue the person.

I haven't done this kind of drill personally, but it sounds like fun.

 

[theletch1]

Howabout a person having a violent, psycotic espisode from a hallucinogenic drug? Police need to know how to work together to subdue the person

My first reaction to the first post was that I found the idea of training to be one of many or part of a wolf pack to be somewhat dishonorable. This quote changed my mind about that. This would also work in the 911 scenario of hi-jackers on an airplane. I've never trained like this but it certainly sounds like something I'd like to at least try out once or twice.

 

[tshadowchaser]

It is good training and should be pacticed. The one might be way better than any one or two of the pack but if the pack can fight well togeather and know how to hurt the one not themslefes the one will lose

 

[KenpoDragon]

As far as a traaining method goes, it sounds more like self-offense, then self-defense. How does this type of "training" differ from a street gang jumping one guy? How does this type of "training" teach you to "defend" yourself? This type of "training" sounds more like the , "How to beat up someone more effectively" training guide. As martial artists we shouldn't be learning these types of methods. As far as the psychotic doped up criminal goes, police officers should be learning takedowns,submissions, and basic restraining holds, not clubbing a guy with four or five of your fellow officers helping out. I think we all remember what happened with that situation don't we??? Unfortunately police officers are not shown the necessary techniques needed to properly restrain a suspect, therefore they usually resort to striking them with their baton (tonfa). I don't believe that martial artists or police officers need to resort to these "methods" to successfully control an opponent. That is simply my opinion though, I'm sure you'll come to your own conclusions.

:asian:

 

[bob919]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
As far as a traaining method goes, it sounds more like self-offense, then self-defense. How does this type of "training" differ from a street gang jumping one guy? How does this type of "training" teach you to "defend" yourself? This type of "training" sounds more like the , "How to beat up someone more effectively" training guide. As martial artists we shouldn't be learning these types of methods. As far as the psychotic doped up criminal goes, police officers should be learning takedowns,submissions, and basic restraining holds, not clubbing a guy with four or five of your fellow officers helping out. I think we all remember what happened with that situation don't we??? Unfortunately police officers are not shown the necessary techniques needed to properly restrain a suspect, therefore they usually resort to striking them with their baton (tonfa). I don't believe that martial artists or police officers need to resort to these "methods" to successfully control an opponent. That is simply my opinion though, I'm sure you'll come to your own conclusions.

:asian:

i agree totally why learn to gang up on people it makes no sense personally if someone is ont he ground getting pounded on i wont he joining in i will be pounding on the attacker.

 

[bob919]

i suppose if faced with a good opponent(ala darth maul) it could be helpful knowing horw to double team
but then waht if youyr friend isn't there i personally think its better training for theg uys being attacked by the group

 

[LostSynn]

The wolf pack training would defenitly be helpfull. That one opponent is too strong, fast, good (enter your own adjective) for just one person and you need help to defend yourself or your loved ones? What if you are on the street with your s/o and you get jumped, the attacker is stronger than you, wouldn't it be nice if your girlfriend with the big purse try to pummel the mugger while he is kicking your butt?


How about being a bouncer and trying to end a drunken violent episode quickly? without hurting your fellow bouncers? I can see many uses for this training.

Also what about the whole know your opponent thing? If you understand how a group attacks doesn't it make defending off a whole mob easier?

 

[Robbo]

to Reiterate the post before mine....

I'm surprized at the number of responses that find this training somehow unethical. It's just another tool, how you use it determines whether you are unethical or not.

What about the usefullness from viewing the scenario from 3 perspectives?

The attacker, the defender and a bystander.

Wouldn't this fall under the attacker part?

If you want to become more effective at fighting multiple attackers, then play one of the attackers to see what works and what doesn't. By knowing this there may be things to watch for if you are ever in the unfortunate situation of being attacked by multiple attackers.

I know it's cheesy but...

To better know yourself, know your enemy (or something like that)

Rob

 

[JeanPaul]

I had that kind of training. It's fun (for person inside/defender). I think it is good practice for fast moving, fast atacks on multiply targets. But I don't think it's realistic.

And hello I'm new here.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by JeanPaul
I had that kind of training. It's fun (for person inside/defender). I think it is good practice for fast moving, fast atacks on multiply targets. But I don't think it's realistic.

And hello I'm new here.

JeanPaul,

Welcome To Martial Talk.

If you have any questions feel free to post them, both on the martial arts technical side or on the forum support side. OR feel free to contact one of the Staff.

Thank You

Rich Parsons
Assistant Administrator

 

[NYCRonin]

This kind of training does find use with the 'professionals' (LEO, security, military, and the like) - Corrections, my LEO; is one agency where this is important. It is far from the mass clubbing of an individual metioned earlier. (LEO dont receive enough training in restraint or any other practical unarmed combatives, IMHO).
The 'incident in LA' as many refer to the Rodney King incident was very much a mess - and illustrates my last point. It should have taken no more than two men to hold him long enough to effectively cuff and arrest him...but, the 'I dont get paid to wrestle on the ground' (hell, I could get dirty, hurt or rip my uniform) mentality is one I have encounted often in my LEO career.

To co-ordinate a team effort to subdue (not to beat senseless) an individual takes training and experience to prevent injury to the participants and minimize injury to the subject. It would not do damage to the 'honor' of any sincere group of honorable martial artists to try this out. Far from it. It will also give the practitioner a view of 'the pack mentality' and such understanding can possibly be an aid in defending such attacks. (In Systema, we will sometimes practise the two man team subduing a subject that might be armed).

Make no mistake, there are 'packs' out there...and many do co-ordinate their plans. My 18 years in NYC Corrections have given me ample proof of this, for I have seen this 'beastie' in action far too many times.

For the practising m.artist, it does not destroy his moral structure when he takes the role of a violent attacker so that a training partner can grow in his defense - and it doesnt destroy the group of practitioners when they learn to play 'the pack' either.

For those seeking to try something along these lines - here is an exercise and a mindset. 4 man team against one. Each of the team is assigned a particular limb with the concept of grabbing it and taking it to the ground. Usually a 'leg man' will initiate the movement of all. Try it, with practise - it becomes a very efficient way to subdue a guy. Then have the subject armed with a training knife...see what happens now.

 

[tshadowchaser]

As martial artists we shouldn't be learning these types of methods.

I totally Disagree with that statement.
A martial Art not a sport needs do do this type of training. The word Martial <if I am correct, seems to relate to war, and I'll be damned if anything is fair in war.
It is just another aspect of training in reality. If you can attack as a pack you might have a better chance of surviveing a pack attack . Knowing how to find the soft parts of the pack comes with learning how to correct them

 

[RobP]

Here's a couple of video clips of mass fist fighting in Russia and some Systema mass attack work

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mass1ff.mpg

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mass2.mpg

Taken from http://www.systemauk.com/video.htm

 

[satans.barber]

We've tried this but it's hard to do without hurting people.

Say one guy grabs you from behind, we've got no mats so we're a bit limited as to what we can do with the person, can't put in a massive takedown as it'd hurt too much.

By the time you've thought about this, some guy's running in at you from the front, again, you can't kick them too hard without hurting them, so they end up discounting your controlled kick and saying 'aha! I could have hit you while he had hold of you!' etc.

It would be beneficial if everyone was well padded up, there were mats on the floor and you were allowed to use a decent amount of force. Without all the padding etc. though it gets very farsical very quickly IMHO.

Ian.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

How does this type of "training" differ from a street gang jumping one guy? How does this type of "training" teach you to "defend" yourself?

Be the animal...

If one wants to understand conflict, he needs to explore it. A person can train a "wolfpack" style of approach without actually seeking to join a gang and thrash someone en masse.

I've done very little of it, but learned a great deal regardless. Communication between team mates is critical. Coordinating attacks is difficult if it isn't practiced. One has to watch ALL around for potential trouble...and not have tunnel vision. Montoring the battlefield is important.

Knowledge of wolfpack training can give the potential victim of a wolfpack great insight on how to deal with a mass attack. It also makes one keenly aware of how bad that situation is.

It isn't necessarily training for gang warfare. Its good training...it spurs creativity in coming up with training scenarios...and its a LOT of fun.


Regards,


Steve

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Be the animal...

If one wants to understand conflict, he needs to explore it. A person can train a "wolfpack" style of approach without actually seeking to join a gang and thrash someone en masse.

I've done very little of it, but learned a great deal regardless. Communication between team mates is critical. Coordinating attacks is difficult if it isn't practiced. One has to watch ALL around for potential trouble...and not have tunnel vision. Montoring the battlefield is important.

Knowledge of wolfpack training can give the potential victim of a wolfpack great insight on how to deal with a mass attack. It also makes one keenly aware of how bad that situation is.

It isn't necessarily training for gang warfare. Its good training...it spurs creativity in coming up with training scenarios...and its a LOT of fun.


Regards,


Steve

You beat me to the punch. That is what I was going to say. That in order to develop a tactical defense against a mass attack, you do have to understand it, first hand. After all it is not the drills or training method that would make you a bad person, it is what you would do with the experience.

 

[Black Bear]

It is certainly important for mission-specific stuff, like non-abusive restraint in mental health/human services contexts, LE, mil, security...

There is I suppose a place for team tactics in sd too, though I can't say we teach that. Like someone said, the EDP scenario. That's a thought.

The USMC CQC manual: MCRP 3-02B does teach an interesting approach. It's located in Chapter 2. When you have more guys than the enemy, you allow ppl to pair off. Then the one extra marine attacks the flank or rear of an enemy who is already engaged with another of your guys. When the threat is terminated, both marines go off and do the same with others. It makes sense intuitively. IIRC I saw a similar tactic in a JKD manual, it might have been one with Ron Balicki in it.

 

[moving target]

you can use it to train diffrent things.. for example, in a 2 on 1 you may simply be giving the 1 more to think about, help them work on movement and periferal vision. with more people you may help work on group tactics for getting out of a situation. As for the attackers training to be better attackers.. If you are assaulted by a pack, and they are experienced, they will behave in a diffrent fasion than a bunch of people who have never acted as a group before. So train the attackers not only to know how to attack (and thus deffend) but to give the deffender a more powerfull opponant and as such making the deffender a better fighter.

 

[loki09789]

We use our knowledge of offensive skills as a training tool to develop defensive skills, how is this any different?

What if it is a 'wolf pack' trying to subdue a 911 type attacker, is that unethical?

What if you are trying to subdue a person attacking/abusing a child? ...

It has it's place.

Paul M