WMD found in Iraq

[mrhnau]

This report claims that since 2003, 500+ WMD's have been found. Suprisingly (toungue in cheek) this is not reported on CNN or MSNBC (at least that I can find). They are degraded, but still considered lethal. Degredation is a function of time.

So, I'm waiting to hear from everyone that claims this war was unjustified due to no WMD. Has this changed your mind? Are you suprised you are not hearing about this on the left-leaning press? They report on civil war in Iraq, people killed in Iraq, things going wrong for the US in Iraq, but something that helps justify our cause is snubbed. I'm not claiming the other news items are not news worthy, just the WMD story likely does not support their motives (ie dropping poll numbers for Republicans/Bush). Perhaps they will pick it up in time.

One thing I -AM- upset about is the news not coming out until now. It might have been clasified, but this has been happening since 2003. Bush and those with the proper intel must have been grinding their teeth every time someone asked about the lack of WMD's. I suppose they had some kind of justification for keeping it quiet until now though... just I would have prefered not having years of defending this war to a growing group of people.

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[KOROHO]

It's not surprising.
The left will still continue to pretend that there were no WMD found. They have to as this is a major theme for thier re-election bids.

The so-called "main stream media" or "drive by media" is essentially nothing but a branch of the democrat party. So they will not report the story.

The fact that there were WMD in Iraq is nothing new. Even bill clinton talked about going into Iraq over the WMD issue. al gore was a very vocal advocate of nuking them.

What we also know is that many other WMD were kept in underground tunnels so they could be moved around undetected and much of them were moved to Syria.

 

[ginshun]

Quite interesting indeed. It should be interesting to see what the libs, both in and out of Washington say about this.

 

[michaeledward]

I heard Senator Santorum today on Imus trying to justify that what was found was cause and justification for the invasion of Iraq.

Those who choose to pay attention will notice that the Department of Defense and the White House are not supporting the claims being put forth by Senator Santorum.

Senator Santorum strives mightily to confuse the issue using fancy terms ... today he claimed that these weapons were hidden from UNSCOM. The Senator did not relate to listeners that UNSCOM was expelled from Iraq in 1998. In the fall of 2002 and winter of 2003, UNMOVIC was the United Nations Inspection regimen. Mr. Dalfuer's report is widely available and reports that no Weapons of Mass Destruction, and no Stockpiles, and no programs were found. The United States forced UNMOVIC to cease its operations before they were complete, else they impede the invasion.

Either the Senator is deliberately misleading the American Citizens by not being complete in his descriptions of UNSCOM, or he is unaware of the subsequent actions by the United Nations. Either way, he does not deserve the vote of the citizens of Pennsylvania. And this will be a footnote to his insignificant career.

Anyone want to hazzard a guess why Vice President Cheney, President Bush and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld aren't touting this 'discovery'? Or what about former Secrertary of State Powell; he put his reputation on the line for this invasion and it has left him in tatters, as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

This report

Its funny how this report is declassified and NOW there is WMD. A few months ago, the Bush Administration, the CIA, and every other government agency was reporting that there wasn't any WMD. So, where did this come from? Didn't the Bush administration know anything about this report? If people have been finding WMD since 2003, one would think it would be paraded around with pleasure.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf

This is the actual report. Kinda vague, don't you think? I would really like to see what they "actually" found...

 

[michaeledward]

It's not surprising.
The left will still continue to pretend that there were no WMD found. They have to as this is a major theme for thier re-election bids.

The so-called "main stream media" or "drive by media" is essentially nothing but a branch of the democrat party. So they will not report the story.

The fact that there were WMD in Iraq is nothing new. Even bill clinton talked about going into Iraq over the WMD issue. al gore was a very vocal advocate of nuking them.

What we also know is that many other WMD were kept in underground tunnels so they could be moved around undetected and much of them were moved to Syria.

These thoughts are dumb-founding.

• The fourth estate is part of the democratic party?
• Weapons were moved underground?
• Al Gore advocating using nuclear weapons?

One must wonder what planet you have been living on? Amazing.

Anyhow, welcome.

Oh, and if you have any sources for these claims, please be sure to share them....

 

[mrhnau]

Its funny how this report is declassified and NOW there is WMD. A few months ago, the Bush Administration, the CIA, and every other government agency was reporting that there wasn't any WMD. So, where did this come from? Didn't the Bush administration know anything about this report? If people have been finding WMD since 2003, one would think it would be paraded around with pleasure.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf

This is the actual report. Kinda vague, don't you think? I would really like to see what they "actually" found...

There is talk of trying to declassify the entire report. thats one I'd very much like to read. I'm a bit upset over it taking 3 years. like I said, I wasted alot of time discussing this in the past.

Anyone want to hazzard a guess why Vice President Cheney, President Bush and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld aren't touting this 'discovery'? Or what about former Secrertary of State Powell; he put his reputation on the line for this invasion and it has left him in tatters, as well.

Same reason I said that perhaps the left media will pick it up. This only came public last night. I think it will be mentioned, perhaps not by Powell or Cheney directly, but I'm sure its going to get out.

The fourth estate is part of the democratic party?

Huh? what fourth estate? talking about the media?

Weapons were moved underground?

They sure were not parading them around on the streets when we arrived. Personally I think many of them were moved out to Syria (if I recall correctly, I heard a report of tons of biological agents being found near the border a few years back). They had plenty of time to hide them, since we drug our feets.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is what I don't understand. The White House and the DoD have both said that they have not found any WMD in Iraq. This report says that they have been finding it since 2003. See the contradiction? How could both the White House and the DoD have known nothing about what was in this report? Just because it was declassified, doesn't mean the information just materialized. The administration has known about this since 2003 and they STILL have said that NO WMD has been found.

It will be interesting to see if the White House changes its position based on this old information that it already knew...

 

[michaeledward]

mrhnau, the White House has actually gone out of its way to distance itself from Senator Santorum's claims on this issue. It is not that they are staying silent on the issue. The Pentagon is also distancing itself from the Junior Senator from Pennsylvania.

And that you think the weapons were moved to Syria, is completely out of line with the investigations on the ground. All of the reports from the military groups sent to investigate and locate the weapons in Iraq report that there were no weapons in Iraq after the three week bombing campaign by President Clinton in the mid 90's. These investigators had time and money and the ability to interview the people who would know and work on any programs, had they existed. Compared to that evidence, your beliefs do not carry much weight.


http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/37966/

Sen Rick Santorum (R-Pa) and Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI) held a press conference yesterday to announce that weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq, only to have their claims flatly disavowed by the U.S. Department of Defense.

Santorum and Hoekstra were talking about the degraded and inoperable remnants of Saddam's pre-1991 chemical weapons program that are turning up at various sites around Iraq. Their allegations are based on the U.S. government's own Iraq Survey Group. The very same report convinced President Bush that Iraq did not have WMD.

The DOD flatly disavowed the Congressmen's WMD claims. ThinkProgress: "Fox News’ Jim Angle contacted the Defense Department who quickly disavowed Santorum and Hoekstra’s claims. A Defense Department official told Angle flatly that the munitions hyped by Santorum and Hoekstra are “not the WMD’s for which this country went to war.”

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/37966/

So much for Fox News, Santorum, and Hoekstra...
:bs:

Another fine example of "good reporting" by Fox and, yet again, another example of how desperate the GOP is getting. Lately, it seems that everytime they (in general) open their mouths they trash their own credability. The White House is making a good move in regards to this IMO.

 

[mrhnau]

mrhnau, the White House has actually gone out of its way to distance itself from Senator Santorum's claims on this issue. It is not that they are staying silent on the issue. The Pentagon is also distancing itself from the Junior Senator from Pennsylvania.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/themix/37966/

OK, source for this please? I've not heard of them distancing themselves yet.

Degraded or not, they are still potentially lethal. Having them is a violation of the UN sanctions. Hiding them among conventional weapons is an obvious attempt at fooling inspectors. Unless you are trying to claim that the paper is a forgery, then thats another line of discussion.

Weapons in Syria
Russia moving weapons
I just LOVE this quote!

A Syrian official last night said: "These allegations have been raised many times in the past by Israeli officials, which proves that they are false."

so no matter what israel says, its false LOL!

Another fine example of "good reporting" by Fox and, yet again, another example of how desperate the GOP is getting. Lately, it seems that everytime they (in general) open their mouths they trash their own credability. The White House is making a good move in regards to this IMO.

I'm sure the dems have never done anything like that Can anyone say Dan Rather and Military records? Time will show though...

 

[Ray]

I don't know why we'd be expecting to find WMDs in a country where every man seems to own a machine gun, SAM launcher or some other wonderful weapon.

I am quite certain that the mainstream US media are reporting things accurately and timely.

 

[michaeledward]

OK, source for this please? I've not heard of them distancing themselves yet.

My source was the Imus program this morning ... and the link to the DOD I posted above. On the Imus program, if I recall, I heard that the White House would not validate Senator Santorum's statements.

Degraded or not, they are still potentially lethal.

Did you read the declassified document? There are no statements concerning the lethality. The statement is 'degraded'. How are you determining the potential lethality?

Having them is a violation of the UN sanctions. Hiding them among conventional weapons is an obvious attempt at fooling inspectors.

There is no evidence that these materials were 'in hiding'. At least not in the declassified report. That they were not destroyed by UNSCOM in 1992, may indeed be a violation of one or more of the UN Resolutions. But we went to war because of 'massive stockpiles' ... in 2003, right?

Unless you are trying to claim that the paper is a forgery, then thats another line of discussion.

I make no claims to the authenticity of the document. I do submit that it 'Key Findings' were released at the request of Senator Santorum; who is behind in the polls for his re-election campaign.

I'm sure the dems have never done anything like that Can anyone say Dan Rather and Military records? Time will show though...

mrhnau ... I will point out to you that Dan Rather is a news broadcaster. He is not an elected Democrat. That you seem to be unable to distinguish between the two concerns me deeply. I will even posit for you that Mr. Rather made a poor editorial judgement in the lead up to the 2004 election.

But, can you, or anyone else show that then Leuitenant Bush attended his National Guard Service? The supposed 'Liberal Media' allowed this question to go unanswered through the echo chamber of the right wing media during the attack on Mr. Rather.

For those paying attention, Senator Santorum is an elected member of the United States Senate. He is not a broadcaster making an editorial decision. Rather (pun intended), he is a desperate polititian trying to find some traction in a losing campaign.

 

[Cryozombie]

Does it even matter at this point?

We tore the country up, right or wrong, found em or not... its pretty much been done.

 

[elder999]

The most likely thing (without having been there , and having access to the data) is that these are munitions which were accounted for and under lock and key from previous inspections and accountings, but hadn't been disposed of, and had to be reaccounted for after we invaded. Many of the explosives used in IED's are from caches that were under U.N. lock and key until the invasion of Iraq.

 

[rmclain]

I don't know anything about these reports. But, I personally know a US Marine that was hit with some sort of nerve agent around the time of the first missile strikes in Iraq a few years ago. Actually, his entire squad was hit, but I only know him personally. Nerve agent = chemical weapon.

R. McLain

 

[michaeledward]

Does it even matter at this point?

We tore the country up, right or wrong, found em or not... its pretty much been done.

Unfortunately, it is not done.

We are paying 2 Billion Dollars a Week, that we do not have.

At least 5 American Soldiers Died in Iraq today.

No, it is not done.

.

 

[mrhnau]

mrhnau ... I will point out to you that Dan Rather is a news broadcaster. He is not an elected Democrat. That you seem to be unable to distinguish between the two concerns me deeply. I will even posit for you that Mr. Rather made a poor editorial judgement in the lead up to the 2004 election.

I'll work up an answer to the other points in time, but this one is disturbing.

Are you by chance positing that the major news agencies do not have biases?

Surveys galore have shown that somewhere around 90 percent of the writers, editors and other personnel in the news media are Democrats and only about 10 percent are Republicans. We depend on the news media for information about government and politics, foreign affairs and war, public policy and demographic trends -- for a picture of the world around us. But the news comes from people 90 percent of whom are on one side of the political divide. Doesn't sound like an ideal situation.

Source
Here are some more. The last is from Wikipedia, a bit about both types of bias. Interesting read.

Those 90% of writers/journalists don't have a motive? What other jobs contain such a divide?

People rail against Limbaugh, but at least he has the guts to come out and admit his biases. Fox News? One of the few somewhat unbiased sources out there. They are a bit right I suppose, but for those on the Left, it only looks dramatically right leaning because its so seldom they see something close to unbiased. By comparison I guess it does look severly Right leaning! What I do like these days is there is at least an option out there. 15+ years ago you had little choice.

ok.. lets deal with other points.

My source was the Imus program this morning ... and the link to the DOD I posted above. On the Imus program, if I recall, I heard that the White House would not validate Senator Santorum's statements.

Would not, or could not? Huge difference. I don't listen to Imus, so I would not know. I'd be curious to hear from the White House why they would/could not validate. I'll keep my eyes posted for that. Post it if you find it first please.

Did you read the declassified document? There are no statements concerning the lethality. The statement is 'degraded'. How are you determining the potential lethality?

Yes, I did. The phrase "Chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal" is in there. Perhaps you missed it. Close to the bottom. That is how I determine potential lethality. I'm not planning on sprinkling them over my Wheaties any time soon.

There is no evidence that these materials were 'in hiding'. At least not in the declassified report. That they were not destroyed by UNSCOM in 1992, may indeed be a violation of one or more of the UN Resolutions. But we went to war because of 'massive stockpiles' ... in 2003, right?

Go and read the Syria/Russian link I posted. I admit I added it in edit, so perhaps you did not see it if I was not quick enough.

We went to war over WMD. We did not find the ones we were looking for (nuclear), but we found WMD. According the Russian link in previous post, they were hiding even more. Did they have nuclear or plans for nuclear? we might never know, since its entirely possible it left country. We gave them enough notice we were coming.

Whats the issue? We found WMD's, but you are not happy we found the correct ones?

I make no claims to the authenticity of the document. I do submit that it 'Key Findings' were released at the request of Senator Santorum; who is behind in the polls for his re-election campaign.

No claim of its authenticity. Fair enough. However, I'll claim that Santorums re-election status does not validate or invalidate the document. Its irrelevant, unless you want to claim he is making national headlines just to get re-elected. I'd much rather discuss the message rather than the messenger, but since everything these days is politically driven, I guess its unavoidable.

 

[mrhnau]

Does it even matter at this point?

We tore the country up, right or wrong, found em or not... its pretty much been done.

From the standpoint that we are there, and that insurgents are destroying at will, no, it does not matter. I don't think it will matter with regards to our withdraw timeline, or the number of deaths in the future.

From the document, they state that weapons could be sold on the black market. I find that disturbing. From that perspective, it does matter.

Politically, the left has been using this issue as a wedge. I think politically it does matter... I'd rather the war not be politicized, but I don't think thats going to happen...

 

[michaeledward]

Are you by chance positing that the major news agencies do not have biases?

Did you read what you wrote? Here I'll help:

I'm sure the dems have never done anything like that. Can anyone say Dan Rather and Military records?

In these two sentences, one can only draw the conclusion, in the English language, that your are calling Dan Rather a 'dem'.

You did not accuse 'news organizations' of 'bias'. You linked supposed actions of Dan Rather to the Democratic politcal party as a rebuttal against my accusation of Senator Santorum's political motivation.


Anyhow, here is the exact (relevant) language of the memo :

Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.

Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.

Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market. Use of these weapons by terrorists or insurgent groups would have implications for Coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside Iraq cannot be ruled out.

The most likely munitions remaining are sarin and mustard-filled projectiles.

The purity of the agent inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives, and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal.

It has been reported in open press that insurgents and Iraqi groups desire to acquire and use chemical weapons.

Now, without context, and reading only the language here; only the first bullet point speaks specifically to any factual data.

That something is 'assessed to still exist' is not synonomous with actual existance. Nor does this Key Finding represent that our military has actually found any of these items that have been 'assessed to exist'.

That 'pre-Gulf War' chemical weapons could be sold on the black market, does not mean the weapons are in Iraq, nor that they have been Iraq from any time after December 1990. This language could mean that in 1989, someone squirrelled materials (sold to Iraq by France and the US) out of the country and are now selling them out of Turkey, for all we know.

The 'most likely' munitions remaining? What does that mean? Do we know if any of these munitions are remaining? This language doesn't say so.

If the first bullet read something like "Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain partially degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent, of which we determine ...."

There might be more to this story.

Oh, yeah, and 'It has been reported that I desire to win the lottery and spend my winnings foolishly'.

Smoke and mirrors.