Wing Chun's Central Concept

[KPM]

 

[geezer]

Yeah. That's pretty much how I see it.

...So are you still developing your WC-Boxing system?

 

[KPM]

Yeah. That's pretty much how I see it.

...So are you still developing your WC-Boxing system?

I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel"! The work has already been done.....by Bruce Lee!! JKD is essentially "Wing Chun Boxing." JKD is Bruce Lee's combination of Wing Chun and Western Boxing (with a few other ideas thrown in) as his means of making Wing Chun work from longer ranges. So I think that JKD is a perfect complement to Ip Man Wing Chun. As I started with boxing.....added Wing Chun things into it....then streamlined it down to the bare essentials....it started looking more and more like JKD! Not that I'm a genius or anything! ;-) I just now see the logic in what Bruce Lee was doing. And I should caveat all of this by saying I am only referring to "original" JKD and what Bruce Lee himself was practicing. I'm not including "JKD Concepts" here.

So, if I was going to "play" at longer range with sparring ..... I would use JKD. I wouldn't try and force my Wing Chun into doing something for which it wasn't intended, and I wouldn't do some form of crappy kickboxing and call it "Wing Chun." ;-)

 

[JowGaWolf]

I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel

I always tell students to trust the technique

I wouldn't try and force my Wing Chun into doing something for which it wasn't intended,

I always tell students to never force a technique. Learn how it works and within which limitations. Don't try to force it.

I went through a similar learning stage with Jow Ga. For a while now my entire perception is. If it doesn't work when I try to use it, then I'm either trying to force it, or I don't understand enough about it. It's rarely "this stuff doesn't work". 99.9 percent of them time. I'm the one trying to use it the wrong way.

If you "took the journey" and ended up with JKD then that pretty much say a lot about your understanding of it. It's sort of like a math problem. Someone tells you the answer and you knew enough to do the math and get the same result.

 

[Callen]

In my opinion, the idea of range in Wing Chun is often misunderstood and can be a tricky topic of discussion. I particularly appreciate the "ambush vs squaring-up" comparison.

 

[yak sao]

I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel"! The work has already been done.....by Bruce Lee!! JKD is essentially "Wing Chun Boxing." JKD is Bruce Lee's combination of Wing Chun and Western Boxing (with a few other ideas thrown in) as his means of making Wing Chun work from longer ranges. So I think that JKD is a perfect complement to Ip Man Wing Chun. As I started with boxing.....added Wing Chun things into it....then streamlined it down to the bare essentials....it started looking more and more like JKD! Not that I'm a genius or anything! ;-) I just now see the logic in what Bruce Lee was doing. And I should caveat all of this by saying I am only referring to "original" JKD and what Bruce Lee himself was practicing. I'm not including "JKD Concepts" here.

So, if I was going to "play" at longer range with sparring ..... I would use JKD. I wouldn't try and force my Wing Chun into doing something for which it wasn't intended, and I wouldn't do some form of crappy kickboxing and call it "Wing Chun." ;-)

I had pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Do you have any good JKD sources you'd recommend for supplemental training?

 

[KPM]

I had pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Do you have any good JKD sources you'd recommend for supplemental training?

Jason Korol has great materials. He is a Ted Wong student and excellent Wing Chun guy.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JKDandWingChun

Greenville Academy of Martial Arts

Amazon.com : jason korol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wing Chun Boxing.

The difference between CMA (such as WC) and boxing is very small.

1. Boxing approach - You throw a jab, your opponent blocks it. You then throw a cross (or hook) to attack the new opening. This approach is faster.

2. CMA approach - You throw a jab, your opponent blocks it. You change your punch into a "grab followed by a pull". You then throw a cross (or hook) to attack the new opening. This approach give you more control over your opponent's arm.

Because the boxing gloves, the grab and pull can be difficult to do. The main concern is without the "grab and pull", the striking art is difficult to be integrated with the throwing art. For those who only care about the striking art, "grab and pull" may not be that important to them.

JKD is Bruce Lee's combination of Wing Chun and Western Boxing ...

I don't think JKD has fully integrated "grab and pull" into boxing yet.

 

[geezer]

The difference between CMA (such as WC) and boxing is very small ...I don't think JKD has fully integrated "grab and pull" into boxing yet.

Wing Chun has a fair amount of grabbing or lap sau used to control, tie up and create openings, but there may be less pulling-in than some other CMA. Forward pressure is heavily stressed. Still, lap sau with a pivot can jerk an opponent right off balance. I would think that a some of this carried over into JKD?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wing Chun has a fair amount of grabbing or lap sau used to control, tie up and create openings, but there may be less pulling-in than some other CMA.

To change a punch into grab and pull can be seen in this clip. Since boxers don't do this. IMO, this is the main difference between boxing and CMA.

 

[KPM]

That's fine John. But that's not really the topic of this thread and has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's fine John. But that's not really the topic of this thread and has nothing to do with the OP.

I realized that I was just "reinventing the wheel"! The work has already been done.....by Bruce Lee!! JKD is essentially "Wing Chun Boxing."

Are we talking about WC-boxing here? Anybody who tries to integrate boxing with CMA (such as WC) will have to deal with this issue:

When your arm contact with your opponent's arm, should you grab and pull or not? If you

- don't, that's boxing approach.
- do, that's CMA (or WC) approach.

So after the integration, which approach will you take?

When we train the striking art, do we always assume that we have boxing gloves on so grab and pull are difficult, or do we always assume that we train without boxing gloves that grab and pull are available?

In other words, should we bring the boxing gloves limitation into the CMA training?

 

[KPM]

Are we talking about WC-boxing here? Anybody who tries to integrate boxing with CMA (such as WC) will have to deal with this issue:

When your arm contact with your opponent's arm, should you grab and pull or not? If you

- don't, that's boxing approach.
- do, that's CMA (or WC) approach.

So after the integration, which approach will you take?

When we train the striking art, do we always assume that we have boxing gloves on so grab and pull are difficult, or do we always assume that we train without boxing gloves that grab and pull are available?

In other words, should we bring the boxing gloves limitation into the CMA training?

Good point! So, from that perspective, JKD is a Wing Chun approach because in JKD there is still the use of Lop Sau as well as trapping.

 

[hunschuld]

Several things I disagree with but I will keep things brief.

Your legal advice such as it is is bad. As a lawyer and former public defender I can safely say the person throwing the first punch is the person most likely in trouble also you much be concerned about civil issues. So you do not Ambush which is also another name for cheap shot.I do not think Yip Man WC can only be effective if it relies on cheap shots

Since your focus is YMWC only. The question has to be asked which versions? There are several.

The YMWC I am familiar with does not rely on square facing alone.

The second form is about bridging which means that you are starting from an outside non contact distance.

Since you have ended up at JKD then have you disregarded half the system? Bruce was at Chum Kui Level knowledge. The pole and knives are as much empty hand forms holding weapons as they are weapon forms.

You seem to be taking a position that sticky hands is the only thing since you discard sparring and getting in a ring. IMO until you spar on a regular basis with non WC people you can never learn WC. This also how the early WC people approached WC hence the mischaracterized stories of people having 300 fights and other such stuff. Friendly sparring for the purpose of learning is not a fight. YM had the same opinion according to the student of YBC that I met .

Personally long before I ever learned non YMWC I sparred against several boxers . My WC seemed to work fine without resorting to bad kick boxing ( when sparring boxers I never used kicks. Wouldn't be fair)

Saying YMWC was designed only for some type of limited self defense is just so ---. All martial arts we designed to fight. Hence all designed to defend your self. All WC is based on concepts not hard fast only one way to do something rules. The fact that people in WC seemed to have wars about who is right and who is wrong thus changing concepts into I am right rules doesn't mean the concepts stopped existing..

 

[wckf92]

The pole and knives are as much empty hand forms holding weapons as they are weapon forms.

Heck yeah!

 

[drop bear]

Ok. My boxing coach drives this idea in to us a bit.

"Win the entry. Win the exit."

If you want a short range aggressive system of fighting to work. You will absolutely need to achieve those two things.

Rather than say hope you will start from range and finishing with the other guy incapacitated.

There are physical skills many people do not possess that are required to win a meat grinder fight. Which is why we use martial arts to offset that.

So fighting is fighting. If you are only employing some of the skills needed to win fights. Then you will be at a disadvantage.

You really should have the tools to move from outside range to in range to out of range again.

And if you get caught or can catch some out. Then you start somewhere in the middle of that sequence.

If you punch the guy and he starts crying then you stop somewhere in that sequence.

But not having that whole range of movement will cost you.

 

[Jens]

You seem to be taking a position that sticky hands is the only thing since you discard sparring and getting in a ring. IMO until you spar on a regular basis with non WC people you can never learn WC. This also how the early WC people approached WC hence the mischaracterized stories of people having 300 fights and other such stuff. Friendly sparring for the purpose of learning is not a fight. YM had the same opinion according to the student of YBC that I met.

Can you share some of the other stories that the student of YBC shared with you, we know very little of his linage

 

[hunschuld]

Can you share some of the other stories that the student of YBC shared with you, we know very little of his linage

Yip Bo Ching is not a lineage. YM told him that teaching would help get more incite into the system. Everyone is different so you can expand your knowledge by answering students questions and adopting the system to fit their physical and mental abilities so YBC taught 5 or 6 friends as a way to expand his own understanding.I was asked not to repeat most of the things I was told. This was because he did not want to get involved in the WC infighting or make people he knew look bad by blowing up some of their YM claims.

I have told some stories over the years but they are just stories who knows if they are accurate .I learned these things 20 years ago so I cant say my memory is 100% accurate either.. Also I don't want to get involved in someone claiming I am lying etc.

 

[Jens]

when my range is reached I attack I do not wait to see what the other person is going to do. As a WC person and being old and slow that range is punching range.

How do you define punching range?

Once your range is reached, do you initially engage by stepping forward with a mun sau to create a bridge?

 

[wckf92]

How do you define punching range?

Once your range is reached, do you initially engage by stepping forward with a mun sau to create a bridge?

A mun sau can be a punch...so maybe that is what @hunschuld is saying.