Why does some old martial arts movies have odd fight scenes?

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moonhill99

moonhill99

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Why do some movies have the whole cast break out into song at the same time and spontaneously dance a choreographed sequence?

Not all movies are bad. I still like many of the 70s and 80s fight scenes than the fight scenes today.

In the 90s they kinda got it right but in 2000s they made it worse.
 

punisher73

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One thing to keep in mind is that movies aren't about accuracy or realism. They're about telling a compelling story and/or the visual spectacle. Michael Jai White recently did a video with Jesse Enkamp (youtube's "Karate Nerd") discussing the difference between effective technique and fight choreography. You see this in WWE. It's a principle we used in my demonstration team. The audience needs to see, hear, and feel the techniques more than the other person does. This requires a bit of telegraph and showmanship to make work effectively.

And it's not just martial arts. Take any show or movie that covers military intelligence, like 24 or NCIS. There's inevitably going to be a scene where there are active hacks going on in the CTU or NCIS system, and we'll get a chance to see how clever the bad guys are, but that Chloe and Abby are even faster and more clever. There's going to be someone saying to just cut the network, but "No, that's the last resort!"

In reality, if you are getting hacked, the first thing you do is unplug from the network. Just like in reality, if you're in danger of getting into a fight, the first thing you do is deescalate. A good exception is in a film like The Matrix, where just unplugging actually kills a human being.

Beat me to it. I was going to reference that video as well on "why" MA are done a certain way because they don't look good on camera.
 

punisher73

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Why does some old martial arts movies have really odd fight scenes that look like an almost a dance when fighting.

Like this one that looks more like a dance. This would never get passed today in the modern would a fight scene like this. It just bad compared to like today standard it looks like a dance.

Why did some of the fight scenes and seems to be more so kung fu fight scenes look like that back in those old movies like almost dance?

I dont know what is worse now like some of those old odd fight scenes or the new modern fight scenes now in hollywood with the shaky camera and really ultra close up shots and jump cuts.
Why does Picasso paint faces the way he does, it doesn't look realistic at all......

It is ART and it is ENTERTAINMENT, it doesn't care about realism.
 
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moonhill99

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Why does Picasso paint faces the way he does, it doesn't look realistic at all......

It is ART and it is ENTERTAINMENT, it doesn't care about realism.

I think you are confusing hollywood flashy fighting than trying to show a fighting.

That look at the spinning kicks, flying kicks, flying spinning kicks and jump kicks and gymnastics moves well would it help in a real fight? Probably make it worse for you and work against you. Does it sell to people that these are just amazing moves well yes.

How do you show a fight scene well you will need two people or more. How can you punch with out causing injuries you must pull back or use hollywood tricks.

Does hollywood tricks make it look real? That is the closet we have to CGI get matter and to than it never look like MMA, boxing or any real fight.

The use of choreographing make for more interesting fight scenes. And hollywood loves choreographing.

There nothing wrong with choreographing the problem is hollywood is in the business of making money not showing true realism choreographing. The ultra close up shots and over the top jump cuts well cut down on the cost of filming the choreographing fight scenes over and over. That is what I have problem with a lot of fight scenes of 2000s to today.

Also a lot of home made fight scenes, martial arts demo and hobbyist choreographing are making better choreographing because hollywood wants cut corners filming the fight scenes. The ultra close up shots and over the top jump cuts allow to fill in the mistakes of the choreographing.

Some people say shaking camera adds excitement and others like my self hate it.

To enough people get tired of ultra close up shots and over the top jump cuts hollywood will continue to use it. I fear after John Wick is done no one know any thing but ultra zoom in close up shots and over the top jump cuts.
 

punisher73

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I think you are confusing hollywood flashy fighting than trying to show a fighting.

That look at the spinning kicks, flying kicks, flying spinning kicks and jump kicks and gymnastics moves well would it help in a real fight? Probably make it worse for you and work against you. Does it sell to people that these are just amazing moves well yes.

How do you show a fight scene well you will need two people or more. How can you punch with out causing injuries you must pull back or use hollywood tricks.

Does hollywood tricks make it look real? That is the closet we have to CGI get matter and to than it never look like MMA, boxing or any real fight.

The use of choreographing make for more interesting fight scenes. And hollywood loves choreographing.

There nothing wrong with choreographing the problem is hollywood is in the business of making money not showing true realism choreographing. The ultra close up shots and over the top jump cuts well cut down on the cost of filming the choreographing fight scenes over and over. That is what I have problem with a lot of fight scenes of 2000s to today.

Also a lot of home made fight scenes, martial arts demo and hobbyist choreographing are making better choreographing because hollywood wants cut corners filming the fight scenes. The ultra close up shots and over the top jump cuts allow to fill in the mistakes of the choreographing.

Some people say shaking camera adds excitement and others like my self hate it.

To enough people get tired of ultra close up shots and over the top jump cuts hollywood will continue to use it. I fear after John Wick is done no one know any thing but ultra zoom in close up shots and over the top jump cuts.
Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I am not confusing anything.

Reread what I wrote: "It is ART and it is ENTERTAINMENT, it doesn't care about realism."

This is the EXACT point you then try to make, that it isn't realistic.
 
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moonhill99

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Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I am not confusing anything.

Reread what I wrote: "It is ART and it is ENTERTAINMENT, it doesn't care about realism."

This is the EXACT point you then try to make, that it isn't realistic.

What I was trying to say is hollywood is trying to sell with the least about of money that the public will watch. If people thought just pushing and grabbing hair was fighting than hollywood would sell that. Hollywood stop making those old fight scenes because no one today thinks that is fighting today.

Hollywood is not into martial arts they are into making money of movies.

If you are talking about punch or kick and person getting hit flys across the room or jumping really high in the air that is hollywood kung fu not true kung fu. Than yes I agree with you there that hollywood viewed martial arts in 70s and 80s being almost magical.

With comic movies and the matrix set the stage that fight scenes where replace from martial arts person using hollywood kung fu with superheros using hollywood kung fu.

In the 70s and 80s the superhero where martial artist people and in 2000s to now the superheros are comic superheros. With both having almost magical powers. Yes I know over the top hollywood kung fu gets annoying because in the real world people dont have those kinds of powers. But that what hollywood sells and lot of people love it. There nothing more getting punched out of a two story window and getting up and do a spinning jump kick and take out three guys. Just not in this world. The hollywood kung fu makes look flashy. Just like taekwondo demos look flashy compared to self defence class. But sadly the laws of physics dont work like that here in real fight.

What really gets me is the ultra zoom in close up shots and jump cuts because hollywood is too cheep to spend time on choreographing fighting than rushing the fight scene. And the odd kung fu movies of past that have almost dance like fighting. When you slow the fight scene down you can see they are not really making contact.
 

drop bear

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What I was trying to say is hollywood is trying to sell with the least about of money that the public will watch. If people thought just pushing and grabbing hair was fighting than hollywood would sell that. Hollywood stop making those old fight scenes because no one today thinks that is fighting today.

Hollywood is not into martial arts they are into making money of movies.

If you are talking about punch or kick and person getting hit flys across the room or jumping really high in the air that is hollywood kung fu not true kung fu. Than yes I agree with you there that hollywood viewed martial arts in 70s and 80s being almost magical.

With comic movies and the matrix set the stage that fight scenes where replace from martial arts person using hollywood kung fu with superheros using hollywood kung fu.

In the 70s and 80s the superhero where martial artist people and in 2000s to now the superheros are comic superheros. With both having almost magical powers. Yes I know over the top hollywood kung fu gets annoying because in the real world people dont have those kinds of powers. But that what hollywood sells and lot of people love it. There nothing more getting punched out of a two story window and getting up and do a spinning jump kick and take out three guys. Just not in this world. The hollywood kung fu makes look flashy. Just like taekwondo demos look flashy compared to self defence class. But sadly the laws of physics dont work like that here in real fight.

What really gets me is the ultra zoom in close up shots and jump cuts because hollywood is too cheep to spend time on choreographing fighting than rushing the fight scene. And the odd kung fu movies of past that have almost dance like fighting. When you slow the fight scene down you can see they are not really making contact.

The audience definitely has a better understanding of what fighting is supposed to look like.

The jump cuts are supposed to be a more realistic representation of what it is like to be in a fight.

And they are trying for immersion.


So the slow mow when he gets hit. The zoom in the clinch. Is trying to put the audience in the fight.
 

Alan0354

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call me crazy, I still watch and amazed of Bruce Lee's fighting scene with Chuck Norris in Enter The Dragon. It's just amazingly fast. It's so primitive compare to the modern days, but it's just amazing.

At least, it's like listening to Beatles of the 60s, it's not that their technique is that good, it's just amazing they broke away from tradition and created something new and change the whole music scene like Bruce Lee changed the whole MA scene.
 
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moonhill99

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The audience definitely has a better understanding of what fighting is supposed to look like.

The jump cuts are supposed to be a more realistic representation of what it is like to be in a fight.

And they are trying for immersion.


So the slow mow when he gets hit. The zoom in the clinch. Is trying to put the audience in the fight.
The video would look better if there was not so many shots of the people.

I just find today it is used extensively lot today compared to before. There is no reason to zoom in and use extensively so many jump cuts on this fight scene as I find that distracting.

Way too many ultra zoom in shots and jump cuts here in this fight scene.

 

GojuTommy

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Largely because most people had fantastical ideas about Asian martial arts and what they could actually do back in the 60s-80s and so fight scenes were often modeled to resemble the kata/forms of the style being featured. That along with the fact whatever martial artist they had as an advisor likely had absolutely no fight experience as well.

In more recent decades kickboxing and MMA being popular and widely available for viewing meant that more of the population was aware of what real fighting was.
 

Alan0354

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Largely because most people had fantastical ideas about Asian martial arts and what they could actually do back in the 60s-80s and so fight scenes were often modeled to resemble the kata/forms of the style being featured. That along with the fact whatever martial artist they had as an advisor likely had absolutely no fight experience as well.

In more recent decades kickboxing and MMA being popular and widely available for viewing meant that more of the population was aware of what real fighting was.
It's from 74 after Bruce Lee. They make fighting from kata and forms of the particular style. It's NOT useful for fighting, but it's pretty and artistic in my book. The worst were the ones from early 80s using high speed to speed up the fighting scenes.

That's what Chinese MA concentrate on. So it's is a good representation of the MA whether it is useful or not in real fights. I myself absolutely do NOT practice kata. I found a school that never practice kata UNTIL 2wks before belt test. It was TKD, but we really did Bruce Lee style kick boxing with boxing hands and TKD kicks. My teacher was very progressive for the time, no MA school do kickboxing in the early 80s. Now it's very different, like you said, you can see UFC, MMA and really know what works and what's wasting time right away.

Our teacher even invite a Jujitsu instructor to teach the class once a while. We didn't know why at the time. Thinking back, how advance and good foresight my teacher was. That was 1984.
 

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