"Who is your Sa Bum?"

[IcemanSK]

In a thread in the "General" area someone said something to the effect that, "No grandmaster has ever asked me what rank I was, but only "who is your teacher?" The idea was that who one's instructor was said volumes about the student.

In the good 'ol USA, we're very proud of being individuals judged on our own merits. Not to mention Taekwondo being so big, I'm not sure a prominent GM would know who the master on the corner is.

We have folks on these boards (from all avenues of TKD) who have some heavy hitter Sa Bums. Is the question of "who's your instructor?" still an important question for we TKDoan? I'm curious if it's a bigger question for our friends in the ATA (because folks know each other a bit better).

 

[terryl965]

Iceman I beleive it does not matter anymore we have so many GM that are self promoted and so many different association that it is like a grocery store there is one on every corner. One of the nice thing with you is being under GM Sells I would love to be with him but under what I want for my student he just cannot give me. I will probaly be under GM Kim and GM Garcia for a while since GM Kim was my 1st GM and he is pushing 80 or more it will not be long until I'm alone but with great Master like Giambi and Southwick and Mc Closkey I will always have people to turn to if need be.

TKD has become so political here in the USA, that it is so pathetic that we will always have trouble recognizing who is who here in America, Just having a Kukkiwon Certs. means alot and probaly that is all that really matter to anyone anymore.

I hope to be in California sometime this year will have to stop by and meet up with you.

 

[IcemanSK]

Iceman I beleive it does not matter anymore we have so many GM that are self promoted and so many different association that it is like a grocery store there is one on every corner. One of the nice thing with you is being under GM Sells I would love to be with him but under what I want for my student he just cannot give me. I will probaly be under GM Kim and GM Garcia for a while since GM Kim was my 1st GM and he is pushing 80 or more it will not be long until I'm alone but with great Master like Giambi and Southwick and Mc Closkey I will always have people to turn to if need be.

TKD has become so political here in the USA, that it is so pathetic that we will always have trouble recognizing who is who here in America, Just having a Kukkiwon Certs. means alot and probaly that is all that really matter to anyone anymore.

I hope to be in California sometime this year will have to stop by and meet up with you.

I would be honored, sir.:asian:

 

[terryl965]

I would be honored, sir.:asian:

Me as well.

 

[bluemtn]

I don't think it's so important anymore, because there seems to be so many different affiliations, self- promotions, etc. To me, it's more important to know how you train! I know, such a generic reply, but that's how I feel...

 

[Last Fearner]

We have folks on these boards (from all avenues of TKD) who have some heavy hitter Sa Bums. Is the question of "who's your instructor?" still an important question for we TKDoan? I'm curious if it's a bigger question for our friends in the ATA (because folks know each other a bit better).

I still tend to think the old way. I believe that there is a value to acknowledging the teacher, provided we are NOT talking about one of those self-promoted Super-Ninja Grandmaster 25th Degree Black Belts. Even if the concept seems to be lost on the younger generation, I believe it should be maintained among the older, more experienced, wise Masters that we may set an example. Perhaps the younger set will catch on.

When you think about it, those who are students of a well-known Sabeom or Kwanjangnim, then their own credentials should be acknowledged without much need for 20 questions about the person's own Martial Art history. Like Iceman said, you could meet someone, and find out they are studying Martial Art. Then, you might ask, "what rank are you?" and they say, "2nd Dan" or "5th Dan." Yet, what does that really mean to you, especially if you don't know the quality of their organization's promotion requirements, or the integrity of their instructor.

On the other hand, if that person replies, "I was a student of Bruce Lee for ten years," or "I studied under Ed Parker for 20 years." If the Instructor's reputation is unquestionable (such as Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Edward Sell, Jigoro Kano, Morihei Uyeshiba, Darwin Eisenhart :ultracool) then the mere fact that the student states who their instructor is, lends credibility to that students training without having to see them perform or grill them about what they have learned.

I don't really care much for all this modern-day attitude of "forget about my instructor - - it's all about me!" Ask some beginner Black Belts who their teacher is, and they say something like, "oh, I don't have a teacher. Ever since I became a black belt, I teach myself." Then you have those who will give you a shopping list of names of those instructors with whom they have trained over the past 5 or 10 years (mostly for about a month with each instructor - if that). Where is the dedication to one instructor, or one system of learning until you become proficient enough to expand and add to a solid base. Where is the loyalty, respect, and devotion to a teacher who becomes like a father (or mother), and treats you like their own son/daughter.

No love loss there. Got what I want, now kick 'em to the curb and find another teacher who can give me what I want next!

No thanks.
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Dave Leverich]

(Adressing the ATA part)

I know that it's about the first question I ask if I'm curious. Mainly because of the style of the person, work ethic and such.

Granted there's quite a few people so I won't know everyone, but if I work up the chain of their lineage I can get a good idea of where they came from.

I do find that I don't discredit people for having a Sabum that I don't know of, I simply add it to the list of people to 'know more about' in the future.

In an organization as tight-knit as the ATA there definitely is a unique opportunity to watch the evolution of students, to see the influential lines etc.

I was judging a testing today of a self-proclaimed 'newbie's school (he's 2nd dan and often star-struck by those who just happened to have 'stuck around' long enough ;p). Anyway, point being, I realized that his instructor and the other judges instructor, was a kid I used to teach in the late 80's early 90's (I didn't realize it then, simply dawned on me that they were all his students)... So, I stopped and realized that this was a culmination of a legacy, at least at this point. The students had great basics, good chambers, a couple of them needed to roll that hip over on side kicks etc, but that's normal.

Do you know how odd of a feeling it is to think of yourself as a grandfather to these students at 36? heh, I tell you though it was nice to let them know how proud I truly was that they continued on the line set in front of me by my instructor, his instructor, and his.

 

[Muwubu16858]

See, it's different for those in the Moo Duk Kwan lneage, since most high rankers know each other. Maybe not by name, but they can find out who's real and who's not. For example, my teacher and another 2 GM's held an event with GM Kang Myung Kyu in Orangeburg, NY last year. When my teacher and the other 2 masters sat privately to discuss matters, GM Kang asked for all 3 of their backgrounds. My teacher was far more than legit, and so was one of the other GMs, but on guy, who will remain nameless, lied about who his teacher was. He stated that he went to such and such a school under Instructor so and so. But later, when my teacher met privately with GM Kang, Kang said "This Guy, he says he learned here under this teacher. But the problem is this is my school in Korea, and I don't know this Instructor." SO the Master was caught in a lie.

My point is that it is very important to know your roots. Not just your teacher, but his teacher and so on. Then, when some 60+ yr old GM asks, who is your teacher, and you give him your whole story, he may know, "Oh, this guy comes from that GM's style."

ex. I learn from Lee Jung Hwan. He learned 21 years with Hwang Kee and 16 years with Oh Sae Joon(who learned with Hwang Kee, and was his best student).

 

[matt.m]

Wow,

Everyone knows that I am entrenched into knowing the history of Moo Sul Kwan. I think that "Your GM is as important and says as much about you as your collegiate alma matre."

Let's see: Lee H. Park (9th dan HKD, TKD and 5th dan Judo), learned HKD from Won, Kwang Wha. Won, Kwang Wha's prominence was that he was Suh, Bok Sub's fathers body guard. This man was a congressman. Won and Ji Han Jae were classmates under Choi.
GM Charles Hildebrand (7th dan TKD and 5th dan HKD), was one of Lee's 1st students. Master Mike Morton (5th dan HKD), was in Lee's 2nd wave of students.

A few of Lee's notable peers are Nam Suk Lee and Bong Yul Shin. So is it relevant, Yes and No. This means you received outstanding instruction, but there is always a difference between an honors grad, and honor roll grad and a C student.

So, does having a "Cool and Whipass" GM mean everything? Nope, I still say that the greatest GM's and Masters are the ones you will never see in TKD Times or Black Belt magazine. The ones you never heard of.

 

[Kacey]

So, does having a "Cool and Whipass" GM mean everything? Nope, I still say that the greatest GM's and Masters are the ones you will never see in TKD Times or Black Belt magazine. The ones you never heard of.

I agree... and yet, there are quite a few people who discount my sahbum as someone they've never heard of - so he must not be any good... which just goes to show they've never met him, worked out under him, or seen him move.

 

[IcemanSK]

I agree... and yet, there are quite a few people who discount my sahbum as someone they've never heard of - so he must not be any good... which just goes to show they've never met him, worked out under him, or seen him move.

Maybe if you were to ask a KKW-ranked GM, but in ITF-style circles certainly your sahbum is well known & respected.

 

[Kacey]

Maybe if you were to ask a KKW-ranked GM, but in ITF-style circles certainly your sahbum is well known & respected.

Thanks! :asian:

 

[terryl965]

ITF or KKW if they are any good the real TKD'ers usaully know each other, it is a small world out there for so many of us.

 

[matt.m]

ITF or KKW if they are any good the real TKD'ers usaully know each other, it is a small world out there for so many of us.

Good point. I know that GM Hildebrand goes to Canada once a year to teach hapkido cane or something of that nature at a huge convention. He is also well received in the circles with Bill Wallace, Jason Hon, and Brad Waller.

A new addition to our TKD class is named Matt Healy, 2nd Dan KKW who initially learned from Bill Jeffries. When Matt initially came to MSK he told GM Hildebrand and Master Evans who he learned from. Hildebrand took out a picture and said "Here we all are drinking together 15 yrs. ago."

Matt just went to Michigan with a guy named Leonard Volkert. Leonard got his dan from GGM Park in Judo and TKD dan from GM Hildebrand. Anyway, Leonard has very in depth training in Long Sword, Rapier, Escrima etc. He is also a former student of Dan Inosanto and a few other top names in the biz.

Well Matt called me the other day while in Michigan and said, "Geez, Waller came up to me and started talking. He made the connection with me and GM. His eyes lit up and said 'Send my regards to Charles'".

Also, Kacey.....If you know that your instructor is great then you don't need people to tell you that which you already know.

 

[Kacey]

Also, Kacey.....If you know that your instructor is great then you don't need people to tell you that which you already know.

I know that... others, however, have attempted to tell me differently!

 

[DArnold]

ITF or KKW if they are any good the real TKD'ers usaully know each other, it is a small world out there for so many of us.

Boy is that the truth!
The longer you are around the smaller the world gets.
Maybe it is the way I was raised but I have an interesting story along this line.

Back in the early 80's I flew down to Mississippi for a TKD championship tournament.
All the prominent Koreans were there. Park, Han...
I cleaned up in every event as a Red belt.
After the tournament there was a large banquet.
Traditional Korean dinner (my first which left me sick as a dog)

Durring the dinner all the Koreans called me over.
The first question was, "Who your instructor?"
Proudly I stated, "Walter L. Lang"

Then they asked, "Why you turn your hips all the way over when you side kick? To slow".

I said, "Yes sir, slower, but more powerful when you need to stop your opponent. Adds mass behind the technique, hips don't fold if they charge in."

They all talked amoungst themselves in Korean while I stood at attention and then Master Park said, ""No, No, No - your instructor. Little Korean guy with one arm."

I said, "No, Mr. Walter Lang"

At this point I was dismissed and went off to be sick.
On the flight home it dawned on me that my Instructor was taught by a Korean named Ra who had one arm. Mr. Lang used to tell us stories about how he (Ra) would beat him up just using the stump of his arm and just laugh and laugh. Being as Mr. Lang was about three time the size of Mr. Ra

They knew where I came from simply by my technique!
These were masters from all corners of the US.

Now my students find it amazing that I know where they come from and that I know most instructors in the US.

Terry,
Probably means were just getting old!

 

[terryl965]

Boy is that the truth!
The longer you are around the smaller the world gets.
Maybe it is the way I was raised but I have an interesting story along this line.

Back in the early 80's I flew down to Mississippi for a TKD championship tournament.
All the prominent Koreans were there. Park, Han...
I cleaned up in every event as a Red belt.
After the tournament there was a large banquet.
Traditional Korean dinner (my first which left me sick as a dog)

Durring the dinner all the Koreans called me over.
The first question was, "Who your instructor?"
Proudly I stated, "Walter L. Lang"

Then they asked, "Why you turn your hips all the way over when you side kick? To slow".

I said, "Yes sir, slower, but more powerful when you need to stop your opponent. Adds mass behind the technique, hips don't fold if they charge in."

They all talked amoungst themselves in Korean while I stood at attention and then Master Park said, ""No, No, No - your instructor. Little Korean guy with one arm."

I said, "No, Mr. Walter Lang"

At this point I was dismissed and went off to be sick.
On the flight home it dawned on me that my Instructor was taught by a Korean named Ra who had one arm. Mr. Lang used to tell us stories about how he (Ra) would beat him up just using the stump of his arm and just laugh and laugh. Being as Mr. Lang was about three time the size of Mr. Ra

They knew where I came from simply by my technique!
These were masters from all corners of the US.

Now my students find it amazing that I know where they come from and that I know most instructors in the US.

Terry,
Probably means were just getting old!

Boy it that the truth

 

[DArnold]

In a thread in the "General" area someone said something to the effect that, "No grandmaster has ever asked me what rank I was, but only "who is your teacher?" The idea was that who one's instructor was said volumes about the student.

In the good 'ol USA, we're very proud of being individuals judged on our own merits. Not to mention Taekwondo being so big, I'm not sure a prominent GM would know who the master on the corner is.

We have folks on these boards (from all avenues of TKD) who have some heavy hitter Sa Bums. Is the question of "who's your instructor?" still an important question for we TKDoan? I'm curious if it's a bigger question for our friends in the ATA (because folks know each other a bit better).

Not to digruess but...

On the other hand, do most know the difference in the definition of instructor vs. Sahbum

I have thousands of instructors but only one sahbum

Sahbum and Sahbum nim have a very different meaning in context when dealing with Koreans Most westerners do not know/understand the difference.

I find that more and more will tout that the top GM is their instructor/sahbum. To this I usually ask when was the last time they worked out with their sahbum. Many times I have received the answer that they have never worked out with them. To this I would reply, "How could you have sajajido" without ever working out with someone.

This is more so they both, student and GM feel imortant, rather than having an actual sahbum.

 

[IcemanSK]

Not to digruess but...

On the other hand, do most know the difference in the definition of instructor vs. Sahbum

I have thousands of instructors but only one sahbum

Sahbum and Sahbum nim have a very different meaning in context when dealing with Koreans Most westerners do not know/understand the difference.

I find that more and more will tout that the top GM is their instructor/sahbum. To this I usually ask when was the last time they worked out with their sahbum. Many times I have received the answer that they have never worked out with them. To this I would reply, "How could you have sajajido" without ever working out with someone.

This is more so they both, student and GM feel imortant, rather than having an actual sahbum.

Point taken. If I train under Miss X (3rd Dan) & her instructor in GM Y, I can't (& shouldn't) claim GM Y as my Sabum. Your eariler story of Mr. Ra made the point that others could tell your lineage by the way you threw a kick. Today TKD has gotten so big, I doubt that would happen much anymore. But if ( & it's a big IF) one is honest about who they train under, there should be an expectation of technique & attitude that student "B" should have if they they claim to be GM Y's student.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[DArnold]

Point taken. If I train under Miss X (3rd Dan) & her instructor in GM Y, I can't (& shouldn't) claim GM Y as my Sabum. Your eariler story of Mr. Ra made the point that others could tell your lineage by the way you threw a kick. Today TKD has gotten so big, I doubt that would happen much anymore. But if ( & it's a big IF) one is honest about who they train under, there should be an expectation of technique & attitude that student "B" should have if they they claim to be GM Y's student.

I hope that makes sense.

If you call someone Sahbum in front of a group of Koreans, in public, and sajajido is not implicetly understood they you usually would get a good dressing down and explained why you should use the term Sahbum nim.