Whip Combat ala Tony Delongis

[Hollywood1340]

Here is a short clip by Anthony Delongis, who is the main influence of my whip use thought and theory. Starting at about 3:10 you see the fillipino influenced martial use of the long whip. For MAist's I highly suggest Anthony's videos. They can be found at his site www.delongis.com
Enjoy!

 

[arnisador]

Neat!

 

[lhommedieu]

Very nice. Still working on my basics - although with the wetter, colder weather I'm indoors a lot more and can't practice as much. Thanks for sharing.

Best,

Steve

 

[tellner]

I have to question how useful the whip is for fighting. It's useful at exactly one range. If someone passes that range you've lost your chance. And unless you do some really serious damage with that one shot - unlikely - you're stuck with a pretty useless weapon and a really ticked off opponent.

A stout handle on a whip makes a decent club at close range. A shotted quirt or blacksnake gives you more options, deadly force options. We've left the whips and moved into the realm of saps and blackjacks. Really monstrous whips like the knout are long gone, and you don't seem to be talking about crops or sjamboks.

Don't get me wrong. Using a whip is a real skill. I just question how useful it is as a weapon.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, this is an obvious concern. I've heard it argued that it's useful for group battles--a few whip-wielders in front, backed up by swordsmen behind for when people do get through. A spear might allow one to close ranks better, but I suppose three men with long whips can defend more territory than three men with long spears.

Of course one imagines that someone going out to fight with a whip would have stuck a knife in his belt for when the range changes.

There's also the argument that the whip builds certain attributes, such as hand speed. I don't have enough experience with it to know!

 

[thardey]

Yes, this is an obvious concern. I've heard it argued that it's useful for group battles--a few whip-wielders in front, backed up by swordsmen behind for when people do get through. A spear might allow one to close ranks better, but I suppose three men with long whips can defend more territory than three men with long spears.

Of course one imagines that someone going out to fight with a whip would have stuck a knife in his belt for when the range changes.

There's also the argument that the whip builds certain attributes, such as hand speed. I don't have enough experience with it to know!

A few months ago I was doing a fight scene with Anthony, for an indie movie project. For one scene there were three of us armed with rapiers vs. Anthony with a rapier and a 8' whip in his left hand. He could crack it with incredible precision, several times a second. Very impressive. Intimidating, but not exactly brutal, although he could blind you. My part was to try and run past him, while trying to avoid the whip. Just as I went past him, he was able to tangle my legs, so I went down. I was supposed to "fall down", as part of the routine, but he tangled me so well, take after take, that I wasn't acting. It tripped me up every time, even though I knew it was coming. It also took me several seconds to untangle myself each time. During that time I was pretty much unable to fight, since my knees were tied together.

From the rapier period, the whip was most often used as a tangling tool as an off-hand weapon, coupled with a sword. Or you could coil it in your left hand, and catch the blade in the loops, cloak-and dagger style. But it was most useful in a small group fight, because you could use it to disarm or, tangle your opponent's weapon, especially if you can get at a right angle to them. The only time I know of that it was used (during this period) by itself was to chase of vagrants or petty thieves. Aka, "I'll horsewhip you!"

Spear trumps whip, though. Unless one whip-man tangled the spearhead, while another killed the spear-man.

Anthony taught himself the whip, and incorporated other tricks from various sources. He uses it for movies and entertainment - I don't believe he really would use his style in a self-defense situation. He has too many toys from Cold Steel (he is their spokesman) for that.

 

[tellner]

Yes, this is an obvious concern. I've heard it argued that it's useful for group battles--a few whip-wielders in front, backed up by swordsmen behind for when people do get through. A spear might allow one to close ranks better, but I suppose three men with long whips can defend more territory than three men with long spears.

I'm extremely skeptical. First, we don't have any record of it being used in battle. Second, it doesn't disable or kill. Third, you can't pack ranks with it. Fourth. the traditional javelins and slings are much better skirmishers' weapons. Those are just the first few off the top of my head.

 

[tellner]

From the rapier period, the whip was most often used as a tangling tool as an off-hand weapon, coupled with a sword. Or you could coil it in your left hand, and catch the blade in the loops, cloak-and dagger style. But it was most useful in a small group fight, because you could use it to disarm or, tangle your opponent's weapon, especially if you can get at a right angle to them. The only time I know of that it was used (during this period) by itself was to chase of vagrants or petty thieves. Aka, "I'll horsewhip you!"

I'm reasonably familiar with the (English language and translated) literature on that sort of thing. I don't see anything except the most cursory mention, usually in the same breath as lanterns as off-hand weapons. The horsewhip is not like a stockman's whip. It's what we call a riding crop these days - a springy malacca or steel-cored stick with a short piece of leather on the distal end.

I can see what you mean about small group encounters. But it seems more like a field-expedient weapon that a teamster or cattle-herder would use than something one would carry as a weapon on any sort of regular basis.

Anthony taught himself the whip, and incorporated other tricks from various sources. He uses it for movies and entertainment - I don't believe he really would use his style in a self-defense situation. He has too many toys from Cold Steel (he is their spokesman) for that.

There's another connection there. My Silat teacher's uncle (Jon de Jong) was one of Mr. De Longis' first if not the very first whip instructors.

 

[thardey]

I'm reasonably familiar with the (English language and translated) literature on that sort of thing. I don't see anything except the most cursory mention, usually in the same breath as lanterns as off-hand weapons.

Exactly, it's just something to use other than an empty hand.

The horsewhip is not like a stockman's whip. It's what we call a riding crop these days - a springy malacca or steel-cored stick with a short piece of leather on the distal end.

I was just referring to the use of the phrase, as in: "Get out of here or I'll hurt you!"

Buggy whips are common down here, you've got a 5' length of springy material, with about 5' of whip on the end. We use them for exercising the horses in the round pen, or on a longeing line. They're often called "horswhips" too. You can crack them, often easier than a stockman's whip, but they just make noise. The kind you describe is popular for ground work on a lead-line, and dressage.

I can see what you mean about small group encounters. But it seems more like a field-expedient weapon that a teamster or cattle-herder would use than something one would carry as a weapon on any sort of regular basis.

Right, whips used to be commonly carried, since livestock was everywhere. It would have been a lot easier to grab one a couple of hundred years ago than today, when you would actually have to carry one, a-la Indiana Jones.

Although, I wonder when the Legend of Zorro started including a whip? Was it during a time when they were still being used, I wonder?

There's another connection there. My Silat teacher's uncle (Jon de Jong) was one of Mr. De Longis' first if not the very first whip instructors.

Cool, Anthony had told me he started by just picking up a whip, until he could crack it, and then got hooked, and started seeking instruction. I don't know how many people he's learned from, but I know he developed a unique system. If you ever get a chance to take of his seminars he's got in Portland, take it -- he seems to be a great guy, at least, he was a lot of fun to work with, and he knows his stuff. They'll provide the whips, if you need it.

 

[lhommedieu]

Anthony deLongis also seems like a very nice guy. I emailed him a couple of novice whip questions a couple months ago and he sent me back a long detailed answer to all my questions - complete with an invitation to take some private lessons at his ranch. Can't ask for more than that.

Best,

Steve

 

[Doc_Jude]

Anthony deLongis also seems like a very nice guy. I emailed him a couple of novice whip questions a couple months ago and he sent me back a long detailed answer to all my questions - complete with an invitation to take some private lessons at his ranch. Can't ask for more than that.

Best,

Steve

I've talked to him at the Cold Steel parking lot sales and Challenges a few times, he is very nice and approachable... as long as his hands are empty.

Longer whips can be choked up on for short range adaptation used snake-style or coach-whip style, made more dangerous by replacing the poppers with piano wire etc, the length between the hands can be used sarong/malong/kusari-style, the bullwhip handle can serve as baston...
a whip can be a very flexible weapon.

 

[thardey]

I've talked to him at the Cold Steel parking lot sales and Challenges a few times, he is very nice and approachable... as long as his hands are empty.

Longer whips can be choked up on for short range adaptation used snake-style or coach-whip style, made more dangerous by replacing the poppers with piano wire etc, the length between the hands can be used sarong/malong/kusari-style, the bullwhip handle can serve as baston...
a whip can be a very flexible weapon.

Please tell me that wasn't intended!

 

[Doc_Jude]

Please tell me that wasn't intended!

That's what you call a double entendre. Being an English major is fun!

 

[Hollywood1340]

As for the whip as a weapon, Guru Tom Meadows has covered this extensivly in his Latigo y Daga system. This book is high on my list.
http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1238
http://filipinofightingwhip.blogspot.com/
http://www.thewhipman.co.nz/Y-Daga.html

 

[lhommedieu]

As for the whip as a weapon, Guru Tom Meadows has covered this extensivly in his Latigo y Daga system. This book is high on my list.

Agreed. Tom Meadows' latigo y daga system looks quite practical and functional insofar as if you do manage to get past the 4' whip you still have to deal with the dagger.

Wes Tasker has put an interesting spin on the use of shorter whips by adapting the angles of attack to a Pekiti Tirsia matrix.

With respect to longer (past 11') whips: I agree that the major disadvantage lies in the amount of time between impact and reset for the next throw. However, in the right hands and with the right set of circumstances (whip on the ground behind you, e.g.) it would be very hard for someone to get inside the whip without losing an eye, an ear, a lip, a voice box, etc. And it's not as if these things are mere toys: I've heard, for example, that a strong crack next to the ear of a steer will basically drop him in his tracks due to the sonic boom up that close. The effect of a leather bullwhip at 700 mph on flesh shouldn't be discounted, either.

That said, my reason for wanting to train with the longer whips is much more a matter of training a core body connection with the tip of the whip than wanting to use it as a martial arts weapon per se. I find that Anthony deLongis' attention to detail with respect to how even the smallest movement or deviation from that movement effects the throw of the whip dovetails perfectly with my intention. I know that my throws are still quite ragged; the deLongis method deserves long-term attention.

Best,

Steve

 

[Hollywood1340]

Waiting on my 9' Indy on a budget in the KoTCS style, and will post some Delongisied clips. My limited knowledge of rope techs from a HKD standpoint are fun to play with with a whip.
And because it is truly the best bargin out there
http://www.winrichwhips.com/indy.html

 

[lhommedieu]

Thanks for the link. I'll pass it along to some guys who may be interested in a less expensive whip. Looking forward to the clip.

Best,

Steve

 

[Hollywood1340]

Here is the gentleman making my whip doing some sport cracking. That Tasmanian Cutback is tough and it hurts when you miss!

 

[Guro Harold]

Here is the gentleman making my whip doing some sport cracking. That Tasmanian Cutback is tough and it hurts when you miss!

Cool!

 

[Hollywood1340]

And here we have the Dog Brothers of the whip world. Leave it to the Aussies. I can see it know, after a few pints with the mates, "Roland, I reckon we could do this for real!"