SaulGoodman
Green Belt
Hi guys, just curious as to how much lesson time is usually spent on chi Sao? From what I have learnt over the years it can vary from the lions share of the lesson to very little.
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Hi guys, just curious as to how much lesson time is usually spent on chi Sao? From what I have learnt over the years it can vary from the lions share of the lesson to very little.
Ok. so you do use the concepts in sparring similar to what was thinking. At the moment I'm only able to stick to punches for a short time, just long enough to redirect them. I not good enough to stick with it and follow it back in. I'm always worried about getting hit with the other fist coming at me to practice is. I have been working on using only my peripheral vision during free sparring and that seems to help with the sticking, jamming, and trapping more.Trying to "do chi Sao" during sparring will get you hit. When we start talking about what is and isn't sparring, it's a huge can of worms! Sometimes our sparring is goal based, other times we just glove up and see what happens. Chi Sao is where you practice "chi Sao concepts", when we spar (I'm talking about me) im looking to strike/kick/clinch etc. trying to actively "stick" to my partners arms while in the mix is not a good strategy imo.
So where does chi Sao fit into all this? Ultimately the movements/reactions that I've repeatedly loaded into my neural pathways during years of chi Sao practice will hopefully kick in as and when they are appropriate based on my opponents reactions.
In short I'm looking to use the side effects/attributes gained from chi Sao in sparring/fighting. I've had a few scrapes in the street and let me tell you, pukes trying to rip your head off don't play chi Sao with you.
Where I've found chi Sao helped was at the pushing/posturing stage of a fight when the bad guy tried to push my arms / fence out of the way to get into my space (I always teach keeping a "fence" in front of you, which is a modified wu Sao/man sao) this often lead to stimuli that caused an automatic reaction which came from chi Sao training. Once the fight goes "live" however sticking/jamming/trapping becomes low percentage as short bridge to clinch (which is the confrontation range in talking about) gets eaten up in a nano second.
Successful use of my peripheral vision almost seems like time has slowed down and I can react to the punch or strike before they actually strike. For a jab, I can see even the smallest movement. The hardest part of trying to use only peripheral vision is that your eyes will keep trying to focus on your opponent. From a science point of view our peripheral vision see's motion better so in sparring it only makes sense to use it.
Ok. so you do use the concepts in sparring similar to what was thinking. At the moment I'm only able to stick to punches for a short time, just long enough to redirect them. I not good enough to stick with it and follow it back in. I'm always worried about getting hit with the other fist coming at me to practice is. I have been working on using only my peripheral vision during free sparring and that seems to help with the sticking, jamming, and trapping more.
.
Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau?
This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing
It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches
Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.
Interesting observations Jowga. Personally I've found that when I have been in a potentially violent situation I lost peripheral vision and the threat I faced I saw more in a kind of tunnel vision. My heart rate skyrocketed and my whole body shook. I think it was the effect of adrenaline on me, I do all I can to avoid confrontation these days as its a HORRIBLE place to be. In my formative years I hung out with the wrong people I suppose and violence was part of the culture back there.Ok. so you do use the concepts in sparring similar to what was thinking. At the moment I'm only able to stick to punches for a short time, just long enough to redirect them. I not good enough to stick with it and follow it back in. I'm always worried about getting hit with the other fist coming at me to practice is. I have been working on using only my peripheral vision during free sparring and that seems to help with the sticking, jamming, and trapping more.
Successful use of my peripheral vision almost seems like time has slowed down and I can react to the punch or strike before they actually strike. For a jab, I can see even the smallest movement. The smallest movement I've been able to see in a jab was the flexing of shoulder muscle that occurred. I know it sounds way out there but give it a try.
The hardest part of trying to use only peripheral vision is that your eyes will keep trying to focus on your opponent. When I training it, I have to place my focus about 5 inches to the right of my opponents shoulder so it looks like I'm staring at someone to the side of him and I try to spar this way without directly focusing on him. Once I think I have "mastered" that distance then I move my focus inward 4 inches to the right of my opponents shoulder.
From a science point of view our peripheral vision see's motion better so in sparring it only makes sense to use it. If you decide to try it, then let me know how it turns out. I always like to hear peoples amazement when they start talking about "time slowing down." This only works when you are in jabbing range, anything closer is going to require sensing (touching) more than seeing. Maybe this is something that would benefit you as well.
Bang on the money KPM, I spar a lot but as sparring should be to and fro giving both parties the chance to try things out applying what I would call "pure wing chun" destroys the Rythm of this "ebb and flow". Applied wing chun to me should result in an asymmetrical exchange where once you enter you control and smash until the threat is no more. I like doing 3 second sparring sometimes where both parties go as fast as they can (not as hard of course) with the objective of trying to obtain a dominant position.From my understanding.....Wing Chun is about fighting from a bridge. A bridge is contact with an opponent, usually at the forearms. This is where the training of Chi Sau comes in....Chi Sau is about developing sensitivity and control at the bridge. So Wing Chun is designed to be "attached fighting" as much as practical, as opposed to "unattached" exchange of punches. Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau? With an "attachment" one can manipulate the opponent's balance and "break his structure." This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing. But the idea of using Chi Sau concepts in sparring would be to establish a bridge....either when you throw a punch that is intercepted or the opponent throws a punch that you intercept....and to try to keep that bridge as you are striking the opponent or manipulating his balance in some way to set up striking the opponent. If he retracts and moves, you stick and follow it back. If he leaves the bridge to try and go around at a wide angle, you go right up the middle directly and should make contact before he does since a straight line is shorter than a curved one. It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches. It should be...contact is established... then contact is used close in, manipulate, and finish the opponent. This is why so often sparring doesn't look much like Wing Chun....because sparring tends to be a back and forth exchange of punches and kicks. IMHO, Wing Chun was not designed to work like this. Wing Chun was designed to close and finish. Chi Sau skills are for establishing and dominating contact with the opponent until he is finished. This may also be why the "forceflow" skills aren't as evident in sparring. Because a back and forth exchange of punches is not where this is the most useful. Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.
First time I've heard of 3 second sparring. Is this 3 second free sparring or is this in context of doing Chi Sao?Bang on the money KPM, I spar a lot but as sparring should be to and fro giving both parties the chance to try things out applying what I would call "pure wing chun" destroys the Rythm of this "ebb and flow". Applied wing chun to me should result in an asymmetrical exchange where once you enter you control and smash until the threat is no more. I like doing 3 second sparring sometimes where both parties go as fast as they can (not as hard of course) with the objective of trying to obtain a dominant position.
Bang on the money KPM, I spar a lot but as sparring should be to and fro giving both parties the chance to try things out applying what I would call "pure wing chun" destroys the Rythm of this "ebb and flow". Applied wing chun to me should result in an asymmetrical exchange where once you enter you control and smash until the threat is no more. I like doing 3 second sparring sometimes where both parties go as fast as they can (not as hard of course) with the objective of trying to obtain a dominant position.
Ah! I'm glad you got what I was saying. Guy obviously didn't.![]()
Guy obviously didn't
Does he simply disagree and spout invective just to get attention? From what I've seen of his posts both on this forum and "the other one" he seems determined to derail any thread he participates in. He seems to always want to have the "last word" on whatever the subject matter is. I kinda feel sorry for the guy, he really seems angry.
Just providing an answer to your question "otherwise what is the point?"
Feel free to carry on with the mutual backslapping if you like, or engage in a conversation. Up to you.
This is how we are able to amaze people when we suddenly catch an object that is falling off a tableYep. For those interested, do some research into the rods and cones of the human eye. Interesting stuff...even more so when applied to certain aspects of daily life, and of course...martial arts!![]()
thanks this means that I'm on the right track for how to deal with a WC practitioner. It also seems to validate some of my theories about Jow Ga movement and why things are done a certain way. Thanks for sharing the info about WC.From my understanding.....Wing Chun is about fighting from a bridge. A bridge is contact with an opponent, usually at the forearms. This is where the training of Chi Sau comes in....Chi Sau is about developing sensitivity and control at the bridge. So Wing Chun is designed to be "attached fighting" as much as practical, as opposed to "unattached" exchange of punches. Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau? With an "attachment" one can manipulate the opponent's balance and "break his structure." This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing. But the idea of using Chi Sau concepts in sparring would be to establish a bridge....either when you throw a punch that is intercepted or the opponent throws a punch that you intercept....and to try to keep that bridge as you are striking the opponent or manipulating his balance in some way to set up striking the opponent. If he retracts and moves, you stick and follow it back. If he leaves the bridge to try and go around at a wide angle, you go right up the middle directly and should make contact before he does since a straight line is shorter than a curved one. It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches. It should be...contact is established... then contact is used close in, manipulate, and finish the opponent. This is why so often sparring doesn't look much like Wing Chun....because sparring tends to be a back and forth exchange of punches and kicks. IMHO, Wing Chun was not designed to work like this. Wing Chun was designed to close and finish. Chi Sau skills are for establishing and dominating contact with the opponent until he is finished. This may also be why the "forceflow" skills aren't as evident in sparring. Because a back and forth exchange of punches is not where this is the most useful. Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.