What is TSD history?

[Kframe]

I was curious of the history of TSD, it is listed as a korean MA but based on what i have seen it is very different from tkd or hapkido. So that makes me curious about its origins. I read on here that it has its origins in Okinawa, and ive read else were on the net that it has its origins in the tang dynasty-the tang so warriors.

SO is there some place i can go to get a good look and rundown of the true lineage of TSD and were its founding sources come from?

 

[MAist25]

From what I understand is that Hwang Kee founded Hwa Soo Do, but later changed the name to Tang Soo Do because it more easily recognized it as a martial art style. He was a practitioner of Karate as well as Kung Fu and combined them into TSD. From what I gather is that many of the hand strikes of Tang Soo Do come from Kung Fu, with Northern Chaun Fa as the main style he studied, while the kicking techniques come mostly from Shotokan Karate, Taekkyon, and Subak. Most of what he gathered from Okinawan styles of Karate came from his study of books rather than his actual practice in those arts. I could be wrong, but this is my basic understanding of the development of Tang Soo Do. Hopefully one of the more experienced TSD guys can come explain further.

 

[Kframe]

Really, so its not tht old of a art then. My question is, why does the lil caption for this forum say that this art traces its history more then 2000 years?

 

[MAist25]

It is not a very old art, it was created just after WWII. The reason it can trace its history back is because of the arts that make up TSD. Subak and Taekkyon are extremely old traditional Korean arts and the Chinese Kung Fu is very old as well.

 

[Tez3]

TSD is Shotokan karate with bits missed out and more kicks put into the katas.

 

[dancingalone]

It is not a very old art, it was created just after WWII. The reason it can trace its history back is because of the arts that make up TSD. Subak and Taekkyon are extremely old traditional Korean arts and the Chinese Kung Fu is very old as well.

Depending on the accounts you believe, the connections to Subak and Taekkyon are tenuous indeed, and current Soo Bahk Do people are very quiet about what forms of Chinese MA GM Hwang practiced. Either they don't know a great degree themselves or the information is kept under wraps for some reason.

From my perspective, it's most accurate to refer to TSD/SBD as a modern form of Korean karate infused with kicking influences from Tae Kwon Do along with some Chinese/Okinawan characteristics. However, it's hard to say to what extent the latter plays in the daily practice of students as the bulk of gup level skills taught are probably standard hard style karate. Keep in mind this is my observation over the years (I even trained for a while in a CS Kim dojang) - if your dojang shows other material earlier, that's great.

 

[MAist25]

Yes I have heard Kee's connections with Subak and Taekkyon are disputed, I'm just going by what he says. I heard that Taekkyon masters today often state that Kee did not have any formal training in taekkyon, but like I said, I'm just going by what connections could make this art one with roots in very old Korean styles. From what I know, like you stated, is that Tang Soo Do is mostly based on Japanese Karate.

 

[puunui]

SO is there some place i can go to get a good look and rundown of the true lineage of TSD and were its founding sources come from?

Try reading the translation of "A Modern History of Taekwondo".

 

[puunui]

From what I understand is that Hwang Kee founded Hwa Soo Do, but later changed the name to Tang Soo Do because it more easily recognized it as a martial art style. He was a practitioner of Karate as well as Kung Fu and combined them into TSD. From what I gather is that many of the hand strikes of Tang Soo Do come from Kung Fu, with Northern Chaun Fa as the main style he studied, while the kicking techniques come mostly from Shotokan Karate, Taekkyon, and Subak. Most of what he gathered from Okinawan styles of Karate came from his study of books rather than his actual practice in those arts. I could be wrong, but this is my basic understanding of the development of Tang Soo Do. Hopefully one of the more experienced TSD guys can come explain further.

Gee, how do you respond to that....

 

[puunui]

It is not a very old art, it was created just after WWII. The reason it can trace its history back is because of the arts that make up TSD. Subak and Taekkyon are extremely old traditional Korean arts and the Chinese Kung Fu is very old as well.

Original tangsoodo has no connection to soobahk or taekkyon, although there is a historical connection to "kung fu", through okinawan toudejutsu.

 

[puunui]

Depending on the accounts you believe, the connections to Subak and Taekkyon are tenuous indeed, and current Soo Bahk Do people are very quiet about what forms of Chinese MA GM Hwang practiced. Either they don't know a great degree themselves or the information is kept under wraps for some reason.

I understand there is a taegeukkwan form, which I am thinking is a taichi form, as well as a jangkwon form, as far as soobahkdo moo duk kwan goes.

 

[puunui]

From my perspective, it's most accurate to refer to TSD/SBD as a modern form of Korean karate infused with kicking influences from Tae Kwon Do along with some Chinese/Okinawan characteristics. However, it's hard to say to what extent the latter plays in the daily practice of students as the bulk of gup level skills taught are probably standard hard style karate. Keep in mind this is my observation over the years (I even trained for a while in a CS Kim dojang) - if your dojang shows other material earlier, that's great.

I visited the Soo Bak Do Hwe headquarters of GM HWANG Kee back in 1989 or 1990 when it first opened. We watched a class, and the students spent almost the entire class practicing going from a joonbi position stepping forward into a front stance low block. There was no mat, and instead they trained on a beautiful hardwood floor. I don't think it was a spring loaded floor, because when they moved into the front stance low block, the floor made a hard ungiving sound. They did look good doing that front stance low block, I must say.

 

[dancingalone]

I understand there is a taegeukkwan form, which I am thinking is a taichi form, as well as a jangkwon form, as far as soobahkdo moo duk kwan goes.

I've read some accounts that say GM Hwang was a Yang tai chi chuan stylist. Supposedly this influence made it through to the Chil Sung patterns he designed. A lot of TSD people are interested in that long fist form you refer to. I honestly don't understand the appeal myself, but admittedly it is interesting in a historical sense.

 

[puunui]

Yes I have heard Kee's connections with Subak and Taekkyon are disputed, I'm just going by what he says. I heard that Taekkyon masters today often state that Kee did not have any formal training in taekkyon, but like I said, I'm just going by what connections could make this art one with roots in very old Korean styles.

GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee.

 

[Kframe]

I dont have time to read all the responses right now, but im surprised at the mention of CMA, which implies kung fu in my mind. What are the kung fu influences. I can tell the okinawan influence, i took karate for a bit and some of it looks related.

Secondly, i was watching on youtube a demonstration of the first basic form. In it, after the low block, the practitioner would raise his hand up and straight to shoulder level then punch with the other hand. Both hands usually were clenched in a fist. What is the purpose of this move? It dosent look like a block, or anything else. Is it a badly executed punch? I saw several online doing that form the exact same way.

Ok lol ima have to start a new thread about my other questions regarding the art, and its techniques.

 

[puunui]

I've read some accounts that say GM Hwang was a Yang tai chi chuan stylist. Supposedly this influence made it through to the Chil Sung patterns he designed.

In the book, the History of the Moo Duk Kwan published in 1995 or so, GM Hwang stated that he learned chinese martial arts while stationed in Manchuria during the late 1930's, 1936, 37, somewhere around there. He said his teacher's name was Master YANG Kuk Jin. GM LEE Won Kuk did confirm that prior to learning from GM HYUN Jong Myung at Seoul Station, GM HWANG Kee did have some prior martial arts training, but no karate training. Also, the Shotokan had a form set developed by FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei called the Taikyoku. Taikyoku is pronounced Taeguek in Korean, similar to the pronunciation of Tai Chi in Korean, Taeguek. The basic form set taught at the Moo Duk Kwan included the Taikyoku forms, but instead of calling it Taeguek, GM Hwang chose instead to call it Kibon or Basic forms. Only my speculation, but I think he did that because he wanted the name Taeguek for the taichi that he learned in Manchuria.

A lot of TSD people are interested in that long fist form you refer to. I honestly don't understand the appeal myself, but admittedly it is interesting in a historical sense.

GM Hwang did have a relationship with GM YOON Byung In, supposedly since both learned martial arts in Manchuria. GM Yoon taught a form called Jang Kwon and there are videos of it on youtube, I believe with GM KIM Soo demonstrating. It is a two man set. Only speculation, but the Jang Kwon being demonstrated by GM Kim and his student on youtube is probably the one that is listed in GM Hwang's book.

 

[MasterPistella]

That is the jang kwon form GM Hwang learned. I have the pleasure of knowing Master Peter Paik. He father was GM Kim, Ki Whang's senior student in Korea and was there when all these Grandmasters mentioned above trained together. I asked, and Master Paik Sr. confirmed this. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago, but his son is still teaching in Masison, WI. Very knowledgeable about what really happened during the early days of the kwans being formed.

 

[puunui]

That is the jang kwon form GM Hwang learned. I have the pleasure of knowing Master Peter Paik. He father was GM Kim, Ki Whang's senior student in Korea and was there when all these Grandmasters mentioned above trained together. I asked, and Master Paik Sr. confirmed this. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago, but his son is still teaching in Masison, WI. Very knowledgeable about what really happened during the early days of the kwans being formed.

Thank you for that. So one mystery solved, the Moo Duk Kwan Jang Kwon and what it looks like. Can I ask you, what is Master Peter Paik's father's name? Is that GM PAIK Sang Kee? If so, he used to attend USTU events and meetings so I got to at least bow to him.

 

[MasterPistella]

You know what. I never did get his first name. lol I only ever heard him refered to as "Dr. Paik" Even GM Roberts & his wife called him that. I'll have to ask. I would bet that is it tho. Master Peter Paik's "real" name is Sang.

 

[puunui]

You know what. I never did get his first name. lol I only ever heard him refered to as "Dr. Paik" Even GM Roberts & his wife called him that. I'll have to ask. I would bet that is it tho. Master Peter Paik's "real" name is Sang.

I have a vague recollection of people referring to GM PAIK Sang Kee as "Dr. Paik". I think it is the same gentleman. "Paik" is an unusual spelling for that particular surname. Usually is is spelled Paek or Baek.