Well, now. Who will follow me and my loved ones to the Camps?

[Makalakumu]

While I question whether the conspiracy exists as described, the post brings up a fascinating question......

Suppose tellner were correct - how many of us would have the courage to stand up and prevent his family from going to a camp? It is all fine to question and condemn what the Germans did..... but how many of us would put our lives on the line to stop another Holocaust?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, just provoke some self examination.

Perhaps another good question is what would have to happen in order for you to either participate or look the other way?

 

[jks9199]

I've had the internal conversations about what I'm willing to do and not willing to do to keep my job; I suspect you'll find that most cops have, because most of us are confronted more than once with situations that either conflict with our personal beliefs or tempt us. And I've stood up to the group think in various situations, as well. While there have definitely been instances of agencies or units that accepted various justifications or outright corruption -- they are in the minority. And the corruption often was an deeply enbedded in the government and community, as a whole. Police will reflect the community; that's one of Peel's principles -- and it can be good or bad.

Yet I still phrased my comment as "I hope"; I know how hard it can be to do that. Which is why I also know that there are ways around them, too. Sometimes, the best option is to quietly circumvent something, instead of confront it directly and end up unable to prevent it.

But -- I also have faith in the American people. I think that it would be much harder to carry out something like that than some fear. Let's look at illegal immigrants; there is lots of outcry and outrage against them -- but there's also many organizations fighting for their rights. Like many other things, you only hear from the vocal people at either end, not the majority that fall somewhere in the middle. I'm pretty involved in the illegal immigration debate, because so many of the gang members I deal with are illegal aliens, or, increasingly, their US citizen children. The simple reality, that most people recognize, is that the people are here. We have to deal with the ones that cause problems while still protecting and providing necessary services to those who aren't causing problems. That's why, in my area at least, most of the 287(g) certifications are going to jail officials; that way, you know that the people you're dealing with ARE so-called "real" criminals, not simply folks trying to work. My guess is that in the next few years, you'll see some form of amnesty/guest visa program put in place.

With specific regard to Muslims... It's very necessary to understand that, in my experience, there are maybe three "types", apart from their base religious beliefs. In the US, we have lots of long-time (or life time!) US citizens who happen to be Muslim. They are Muslims, but culturally US citizens. They tend to reflect a tolerance that I personally have not seen in Muslims who are culturally Saudi or Iranian or, more generally, Middle Eastern. And, of course, at the extreme end -- you have the fundamentalists, who are as representative of the majority of Muslims as Bible-thumping, KKK-supporting, abortion clinic bombing "Christians" are. I would only like to see the mainstream be more vocal in condemning the extremists -- in both cases!

 

[Xue Sheng]

It is not often I read through entire posts in great detail in the study, to be honest I try and avoid the study, but I have read through this one. I am not a big fan of Rudy Giuliani’s but I do not think Rudy G is going to start a holocaust. While mayor of NYC (and he was during 911) the only thing he tried to wipe out was pornography. I do not remember him having any racial issues, marital yes but no racial. He did not round up all the Muslims in NYC after 911 and I doubt he would if he were ever president.

But I also do not feel that many would do a damn thing to stop something like what is being discussed here either. They all talk a good game but when it comes down to it they will not do a thing. I have seen that too many times in some of the jobs I have had where people are greatly concerned for something talk loudly about what others should do but they themselves never do anymore than talk and others generally don’t do that much. And we are talking things much less serious than what is being discussed here

Also there are places in the US I try to avoid now because I am a white American of Germanic decent and my wife if Chinese and we have children. That sort of thing just doesn’t go over well in some parts of this country right now and there is really no one doing anything about that so why would they do anything about rounding up people that many are currently scared of mainly due to lack of knowledge about the culture and ignorance about other races. Hell I have an aunt who is terrified of Japanese people because of what happened a pearl harbor and she was scared of my wife until it was explained to her that my wife is Chinese not Japanese they are not the same and many Chinese of her age group (70s) dislike the Japanese about as much as she fears them.

As to moving to another country, I have thought about it, but where am I going t go? There are no idealist utopias out there to go to. China…. Well my wife would do ok and I likely would have no problems but are kids might. Europe… oh that works…not. Terrorists are all over the place in Europe, the Middle East and the US and racial intolerance it just about everywhere.

 

[Cruentus]

Cruentus, do you honestly think that any muslim in this country is going to remain a free person after the next terrorist attack? 9/11 proved that the people of this country will roll over and accept just about anything. Millions of people would beg for martial law if this country was hit again.

Well, I think that this is basically up to us. Yea, us. That means me, you, and everyone else sitting behind a computer screen reading this.

This is why we need to fight for the rights of the individual. When individual rights in our country erode for a collective "greater good," then we leave room for totalitarianism. This is because whatever is better for the "collective" or "greater good" is very subjective. If the majority feels that it is best for the collective social populus to round up Muslims or illegals and hold them in camps or send them away, then that is what we will do.

It is because the "greater good" is so subjective, we have to discard that idea and focus on standing on our principles of preserving individual rights.

When individual rights are preserved, then no "target group," be it Muslim or whomever, will ever be rounded up.

If this is a real concern for any of you, then you need to consider voting in someone who would best preserve individual rights this election...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich, my paranoia has pretty firm bounds. But I honestly can't see any other way of parsing what the guy said. He wants to drive out or "get rid of" Muslims. All Muslims. He was given the chance to explain or change his story and said even more explicitly that he believes that all Muslims are enemies. There aren't any good one or bad ones.

And he said it as a campaign official for Candidate Giuliani who hasn't bothered to repudiate or spin it.

How else can you read it? What would your interpretation of his statements and the video be?

Tellner may I counter with my arguement of you?

Please see this post http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875134&postcount=2 in this thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56291

There's only one possible answer. Dan Inosanto. He lifted the FMA out of obscurity and gave them a respectable public face. He promoted and brought forward pretty much all of the important Southeast Asian martial arts teachers. He was also the first to bring them to a wider non-Filipino audience. Even the teachers who had nothing to do with him have benefited from the publicity he generated for their arts. Frankly, a lot of so-called Masters and Grandmasters and Datus and Tuhons and all the rest should be down on their knees giving thanks to him instead of spreading slander and ingratitude. He's the one who provided their meal ticket.

He also systematized a lot that was done in more informal ways. Many prominent teachers living and dead took his stuff, filed off the serial numbers and claimed it as their own. He didn't badmouth them but just went on doing his thing, resolving quarrels rather than starting them. Anyone who could get Al Concepcion and Mike Inay (ztl) to sit down over dinner and bury the hatchet with just a phone call deserves some kind of award for saintly patience in the cause of Peace.

In this thread you insult everyone who is not Dan Inosanto.


In a further post when a counter point was made you said:

I'll have to respectfully disagree for the reasons above. If it hadn't been for Mr. Inosanto they would all still be languishing in obscurity. It's hard to overstate the influence he had on the stature and exposure of the FMA. I'm not saying that he's the best eskrimador who ever banged a knuckle. But he's the most influential single practitioner of the last fifty years.

The word "respectfully" steps but you were not being respectful as you continued to referrence the above and did not change your post.

You were still instulting and condescending.

My Post: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875194&postcount=6 in the same thread

I am confused by this.

GM Remy Presas was in the States and was already well known in the PI or RP as it is also called. I think Remy did his think and wanted to teach and travel. Remy went to lots of countries and taught lots of people. Is that not also taking the FMA's from Obscurity? Unless of course you are saying that Remy and Modern Arnis does not have a respectable public face. I am not sure which is part of my confusion. You mention it in the first and not the4 second so it may not be your main point.

This by no means an insult to Dan.

You do not reply directly to my questions about your insults to the art I train and to the others arts and people who are not associated with Dan Inosanto.

Instead you reply is:

There has been a lot of good fighters and players. They all seem to have converged around Guro Inosanto. He might not be the best eskrimador in the world, but there's no doubt whatsoever he was the most influential single person in bringing them into the public eye.

Once again one can only be good if associated with Dan Inosanto.


Now comes the hard part. As it requires you to step out side of yourself and see something you may not like.

Replace your comments about Dan Inosanto and call it Christian beliefs. Call the rest outside Muslim Beliefs.

Between you and Rudy G, I see no difference. You both are intolerant. You both have agendas and will make your sly remarks and insults and continue to try to present you belief of how the world should be.

So while I see your paranoia or fear of them going on a Christian Holy Crusade, I can also see how it may be something he does not wish to continue or discuss for ti can only get worse. If he takes tiback then he has no back bone. He he steps around it it might get forgotten.

So in a personal note, did you mean your above as insults in the other thread? Did you mean that Ihave to get down and Pay homage to Dan Inosanto even if I never trained with him, but I have trained with others of skill and name?

To you might think that the arts and training is not the same as religion. But your passion and or beliefs in your religion or those you love and care for, is similiar to others in other beliefs of passions they have in their lives.

You see there are sections of the US Constitution and admendments that try to protect people for religionous beliefs. There is nothing protecting me from your insults and the insults of others like you. To me it is the same. The differnece here is I can vote for someone else other than Rudy G. You on the other hand are here, and I can either put you on the ignore list, (* Close to happening as I do not wish to try to follow you around and be a check on you. Nor do I wish to really continue to try to argue/present arguements or points with people who are insulted by actions of others they they themselves express. *) or just put you on a mental list of ignore and just call your comments out there from my point of view. But you are still here, and you play by the rules and are not likely to be kicked off the island. But I can see you continuing to present you biases and your point of views and trying to make your points, but not responding or fully addressing an issue.

But that is my opinion, and that alone will get you nothing.


*************
I apologize to the staff if you believe this post to be off topic. It is not meant as a bait or trollish behaviour. It is meant as a counter to a person who has an issue with how someone acts, but from my point of view they act the same. It is meant for him to either respond, or to ignore as he sees fit, of course within the rules of this site.
*************

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, I think that this is basically up to us. Yea, us. That means me, you, and everyone else sitting behind a computer screen reading this.

This is why we need to fight for the rights of the individual. When individual rights in our country erode for a collective "greater good," then we leave room for totalitarianism. This is because whatever is better for the "collective" or "greater good" is very subjective. If the majority feels that it is best for the collective social populus to round up Muslims or illegals and hold them in camps or send them away, then that is what we will do.

It is because the "greater good" is so subjective, we have to discard that idea and focus on standing on our principles of preserving individual rights.

When individual rights are preserved, then no "target group," be it Muslim or whomever, will ever be rounded up.

If this is a real concern for any of you, then you need to consider voting in someone who would best preserve individual rights this election...

I grew up with a Japanese American across the street he was working for GM during WWII. He was one the patent holders on turn signals. He staid at home and worked from home because GM did nto wish for him to have problems with the local society at all. His wife, a Caucasion American, was also a concern, and so a "boy" was hired to do all their grocery shopping. GM went out of its' way including building an addition on the back of his house as an office for him to work in, and having a GM employee run his drawings back and forth, and other professional needs.

If our corporations and the people involved can do this during WWII, I have faith that people will be better treated today then in the past. I know being under house arrest would not be a good thing. I know that it would be considered a violation of their freedoms. I agree.

I know on the afternoon of the 9/11/2001 I was verbally assaulted ata a gas station with this blonde haired blued guy yelling at the Jewish Isreali who owned the BP Gas station to go home. As he walked out he started yelling at me as well. When he stopped to take a breath, I replied, "GO HOME WHITE MAN!" His wife told him to get into the car and shut up. He was upset. He wanted to "kill" all muslims and all foreigners. He wanted us to all go home and die.

So while I have been a direct target during hatred and anger, I know the actions of the crowds and those who fear.

Personally, I think that everyone should go back to their homes and give back the lands to the American Indians. But as there are two major causes for war in the past, that being population issues and the other being resource issues, the population increases to the base countries that all would go back too would cause issues of population and resources. Another modern one is culture identity and cultural survival. Many of these ultra conservatives want their culture to survive, but it was not like this even 75 years ago. It was completely different. Many of these countries embraces modern technology and culture and were looking to grow. One could study history and what was done in these countries to see how a small disatifcation grew and grew until it began to gain more power in the 70's, that has caused more issues and problems (* from the US's point of view *) in the region.

As stated in the Death penalty thread by me, there will be others out there struggling to make their culture survive. The US culture is one of tolerance (* Ok that may not be 100% true but on paper, it is supposed to be *) and if all can get along here in the US and not make religion an issue then it is possible to survive like this. It is everyone's right and what I consider responsibility to continue to argue against people they disagree with, and to vote against them. The problem is I believe people should vote for someone. The problem is that I cannot find someone I can get 100% behind, so I have to compromise and make decisions about which peson I vote for.

 

[Tez3]

A reflection on taking responsibility.

"We who have lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's atittude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.
And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which is determined whether or not you would become the plaything of circumstances, renouncing freedom and dignity to become moulded into the form of a typical inmate."

Victor E Frankl


If I am not for myself, who is for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if now now, when?

Hillel

 

[Omar B]

I voted for Rudy for mayor and I'll vote for him as president.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A reflection on taking responsibility.

"We who have lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's atittude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.
And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which is determined whether or not you would become the plaything of circumstances, renouncing freedom and dignity to become moulded into the form of a typical inmate."

Victor E Frankl


If I am not for myself, who is for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if now now, when?

Hillel

also

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke

 

[Cruentus]

I voted for Rudy for mayor and I'll vote for him as president.

You mean, there weren't any death camps in NYC?

 

[The Last Legionary]

I've despised Giuliani for years. He was always a self-important, vindictive, corrupt, mercenary, faithless martinet with delusions of adequacy. But now that dislike has blossomed into actual fear. If this bastard gets anywhere near the White House my wife will be "ethnically cleansed". Many of my friends will be stripped of their citizenship, exiled or murdered. And me? Much of my family missed the Holocaust. I suppose I'll get to be on the receiving end of this one.


What's causing the histrionics?

One of Ru9-11dy Giu9-11liani's campaign managers said



According to a interview with the man - and I use the term loosely


Even Chimpy and the Torturer's Apprentice take the trouble to say that there are good people who are Muslims and bad people who are Muslims. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the the veil has slipped. The number two or three GOP campaign wants a Crusade against all Muslims everywhere and believes that anyone who follows the religion is evil and needs to be driven from their homes, possibly exterminated.

To think that we could fall so far, so fast.

Talk about melodramatic. There are 3-10 Million! Muslims in the US today. I highly doubt that they will go "quietly into that good night". Anyone stupid enough to push such an issue will get taken to task. Fricken sensationalists, "the sky is falling, the sky is falling".
BAH!



IV

 

[Makalakumu]

You mean, there weren't any death camps in NYC?

Were there death camps in 1933?

It doesn't have to be Guiliani...

 

[Big Don]

I would like to point out that during this campaign, we are hearing from all sides about plans to break down doors at three in the morning and disappear a group of people.

I want everyone to count the number of times they hear on the radio, or see on the television, or the bumperstickers on the backs of cars --- decrying 'No Amnesty for Illegals'. How often have you heard 'Sanctuary City', and 'Sanctuary Mansion'?

There is a HUGE difference between arresting criminals, and "disappearing" people. Comparing the two is foolish at best, when you do it, it is just dishonest.
There are also massive differences between Sikhs and Muslims. Just because many adherents of both wear similar head wear, doesn't make them the same...

 

[Big Don]

Now, as to John Deady; he is not a campaign manager. He is the co-chair of a special interest group called "Veterans for Rudy." This is a group that was organized to support Guliani, but it is not an official part of his campaign.

Hold the phone!
There are a whole bunch of White Supremacist nimrods who love Ron Paul, does that mean Ron Paul is automatically a racist? By the OP's posts, apparently so. So does Barbra Streisand's endorsement of Hillary Clinton make Clinton a great singer? Does Chuck Norris' endorsement of Huckabee mean Huckabee is now a TKD Black Belt and crappy actor?

 

[FearlessFreep]

Does Chuck Norris' endorsement of Huckabee mean Huckabee is now a TKD Black Belt and crappy actor?

Oh, come on now, that is totally out of line.

Chuck did Tang Soo Do

 

[grydth]

Hold the phone!
There are a whole bunch of White Supremacist nimrods who love Ron Paul, does that mean Ron Paul is automatically a racist? By the OP's posts, apparently so. So does Barbra Streisand's endorsement of Hillary Clinton make Clinton a great singer? Does Chuck Norris' endorsement of Huckabee mean Huckabee is now a TKD Black Belt and crappy actor?

I really have to disagree with you on one point . . . Hellary is a great singer. Everyone thinks they are hearing their favorite song, when in fact she is saying nothing at all.

Soon, it will be time for her first hit, a cover for the siren song of Lorelei.

:headbangin:

 

[Big Don]

I really have to disagree with you on one point . . . Hellary is a great singer. Everyone thinks they are hearing their favorite song, when in fact she is saying nothing at all.

Soon, it will be time for her first hit, a cover for the siren song of Lorelei.

:headbangin:

Not everyone...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Tellner,

Did you see post number 25 in this thread by me?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=905342&postcount=25

Any response? I would like to better understand your point and arguments here and in other threads. I find it hard to, when I consider you to discriminate and make comments that if others made you in person would take exception or insult too.

Thanks

 

[Cruentus]

Were there death camps in 1933?

It doesn't have to be Guiliani...

Well, in the context of this thread, yes it does. The conjecture here is that Guiliani has a grand plan to rid the nation of Muslims. So, it would be prudent to find something in his record that would indicate that this is something that he would do.

 

[Cruentus]

Hold the phone!
There are a whole bunch of White Supremacist nimrods who love Ron Paul, does that mean Ron Paul is automatically a racist? By the OP's posts, apparently so. So does Barbra Streisand's endorsement of Hillary Clinton make Clinton a great singer? Does Chuck Norris' endorsement of Huckabee mean Huckabee is now a TKD Black Belt and crappy actor?

Exactly... just because a loon supports someone, that doesn't make that someone a loon.