Well, now. Who will follow me and my loved ones to the Camps?

[tellner]

I've despised Giuliani for years. He was always a self-important, vindictive, corrupt, mercenary, faithless martinet with delusions of adequacy. But now that dislike has blossomed into actual fear. If this bastard gets anywhere near the White House my wife will be "ethnically cleansed". Many of my friends will be stripped of their citizenship, exiled or murdered. And me? Much of my family missed the Holocaust. I suppose I'll get to be on the receiving end of this one.


What's causing the histrionics?

One of Ru9-11dy Giu9-11liani's campaign managers said

"[Rudy's] got I believe the knowledge and the judgement to attack one of the most difficult problems in current history and that is the rise of the Muslims, and make no mistake about it, this hasn't happened for a thousand years. These people are very dedicated and they're also very very smart in their own way. We need to keep the feet to the fire and keep pressing these people until we defeat or chase them back to their caves or in other words get rid of them."

According to a interview with the man - and I use the term loosely

Late Update: Greg Sargent just interviewed the guy. He is John Deady, the co-chair of Veterans for Rudy in New Hampshire, and he is not backing off his original comments, telling Greg: "I don't subscribe to the principle that there are good Muslims and bad Muslims. They're all Muslims."
We'll have more from Greg's interview shortly.

Even Chimpy and the Torturer's Apprentice take the trouble to say that there are good people who are Muslims and bad people who are Muslims. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the the veil has slipped. The number two or three GOP campaign wants a Crusade against all Muslims everywhere and believes that anyone who follows the religion is evil and needs to be driven from their homes, possibly exterminated.

To think that we could fall so far, so fast.

 

[Cruentus]

Well, with all due respect, your view is completely unobjective and extremist, and inaccurate I'm afraid. And for the record, I am not a Guliani supporter.

There is no reasonable expectation or even thought that Guliani would have "all Muslims" ethnically cleansed or exterminated. He actually has a very liberal and tolerant social record from his office in NYC. I think that your claim that he is a racist or that he will crusade against all Muslims is unfounded. I won't believe it until I get a direct quote from him pointing to this notion; and this is something that has not been produced. All we have based on your post and the linked articles is something saying that he said something to so-and-so; this is far from verifiable.

Now, we do have a "co-chair" of a support group that is quoted saying something completely retarded; but I think that his quote is more ignorant rather then racist. I don't think that "co-chair" is separating "islamic terrorists" from muslims. However, this co-chair is not a "campaign manager" but a person who plays a minor role in a special interest group. Hardly a key player in the Guliani campaign. Regardless, this wouldn't be the 1st time that a supporter of a candidate says something stupid.

Now, Guliani does talk about "islamic terrorists" in his speeches. Some flower children seem to have a problem with the term, but as far as I am concern, they can **** off. There are Islamic terrorists in this world, and they are a category that we need to address. They, however, are not all Muslims. But I see no indicator that Guliani thinks that all Muslims are "Islamic Terrorists."

Critiquing Guliani is fine as far as I am concerned, as he is not my favorite either. But at least do so with some level of accuracy...

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't know what your circumstances are, but I would seriously consider leaving the country if you feel this way. I am not a "america love it or leave it" type of guy, either. It's just pragmatics and a matter of safety. There are some very dangerous people with some very dangerous ideas running for the top leadership positions of this country. As unbelieveable as it sounds, that is where we are at.

 

[grydth]

While I question whether the conspiracy exists as described, the post brings up a fascinating question......

Suppose tellner were correct - how many of us would have the courage to stand up and prevent his family from going to a camp? It is all fine to question and condemn what the Germans did..... but how many of us would put our lives on the line to stop another Holocaust?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, just provoke some self examination.

 

[Cruentus]

I don't know what your circumstances are, but I would seriously consider leaving the country if you feel this way. I am not a "america love it or leave it" type of guy, either. It's just pragmatics and a matter of safety. There are some very dangerous people with some very dangerous ideas running for the top leadership positions of this country. As unbelieveable as it sounds, that is where we are at.

Dude... I would agree with you if we were actually being "ethnically cleansed." But we are not, and no candidate that we have running has expressed plans to do such a thing.

 

[Cruentus]

While I question whether the conspiracy exists as described, the post brings up a fascinating question......

Suppose tellner were correct - how many of us would have the courage to stand up and prevent his family from going to a camp? It is all fine to question and condemn what the Germans did..... but how many of us would put our lives on the line to stop another Holocaust?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, just provoke some self examination.

Man, if that were to occur I would be the first one to stand up, and I sure as hell hope that many others would do the same. But that is incidental and hypothetical. VERY Hypothetical considering that there has been no such expressed plans to do anything of the sort...

 

[tellner]

Cruentus, did you actually read what the twit said? No? Didn't think so. I'll repeat it:

"I don't subscribe to the principle that there are good Muslims and bad Muslims. They're all Muslims."

and

We need to keep the feet to the fire and keep pressing these people until we defeat or chase them back to their caves or in other words get rid of them."

This is a campaign official from Giuliani's campaign. He has called for "getting rid" of all Muslims and and doesn't make any distinctions at all. That's why they interviewed him a second time after it was caught on video tape.

But do you know? In spite of all that I really do believe you, Cruentus. We disagree on a lot of things - many of which could be resolved in person over a couple beers - but you're no Good German. You would not "stand idly by the blood of your neighbor", and if what I fear came to pass I would be proud to be your comrade in arms.

Giuliani hasn't bothered to repudiate it. None of the other candidates have said anything. This is exactly what you said wasn't happening. And because I don't want it to get beyond rhetoric I sure as hell want Rudy kept far away from the White House.

The idea that every single one of the candidates for a major Party would support torture would have been unthinkable twenty years ago. It's happened. The idea that both Parties would go along with two successive pieces of legislation getting rid of our most sacred liberties and doing away with the very idea of checks and balances giving one man unchallenged authority would have been bad science fiction. Washington, Madison and Jefferson would have horsewhipped the lot of them. Teddy Roosevelt, Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower would have shot the man who suggested it. Nixon would have died of shame. Gay Edgar Hoover didn't try to implement his plans because he knew it wouldn't have passed even in the 1950s.

 

[Big Don]

So you are still confusing what one person says with stated policy?

 

[Makalakumu]

Dude... I would agree with you if we were actually being "ethnically cleansed." But we are not, and no candidate that we have running has expressed plans to do such a thing.

I have two points.

a. People who honestly feel threatened in this manner need to seriously consider moving or they need to reconsider just how strongly they feel about this matter. I am dead serious about this. Why splatter your doubts and worries all over the internet when you can actually do something productive about it?

b. No one is going to get elected by saying they want to start another holocaust. You can only look at what people are saying and attempt to use your pre-existing knowledge to draw some conclusions. With that being said, I wish every American could go to the Holocaust Museum and Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. It's happened before in this country. The Nazis learned from us. Now people are talking the same kind of **** that led to Auschwitz.

I'm not saying that it will get that bad, but if you really thought that it might, refer to my first point.

 

[Empty Hands]

Suppose tellner were correct - how many of us would have the courage to stand up and prevent his family from going to a camp?

I think most of us would - if we understood what was happening as such. Chances are, we wouldn't. If we take Nazi Germany as a model for the disappearances, most of us would never know. They would be arrested at three in the morning while you were asleep and you would never hear from them again. If, for some reason, there was some publicity attached to it, the deceptions would begin. Tellner and his family were terrorists. They had planned on blowing up a mall. They were dangerous. They were arrested for our safety. They are being treated well and are in prison. No, of course we're not torturing them, why would we do that? No, of course we're not exterminating them, we're just holding these dangerous terrorists in jail for our protection!

And so on. You would be kept just confused enough that you wouldn't be sure if action was warranted. By the time you figured it out, it would be too late. You would be isolated, afraid to speak out or attempt to organize lest you meet the same fate. So, confused and then isolated, chances are you keep quiet. It's what happened in Germany.

If such a thing were to happen here, it would not be obvious.

 

[jks9199]

While I question whether the conspiracy exists as described, the post brings up a fascinating question......

Suppose tellner were correct - how many of us would have the courage to stand up and prevent his family from going to a camp? It is all fine to question and condemn what the Germans did..... but how many of us would put our lives on the line to stop another Holocaust?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, just provoke some self examination.

I, for one, hope that were I given such an illegal and unethical order, that I'd refuse to obey.

Failing that outright courage... I figure maybe if real criminals are hard enough to find, imagined criminals must be even harder to find, right?

 

[Makalakumu]

I think most of us would - if we understood what was happening as such. Chances are, we wouldn't. If we take Nazi Germany as a model for the disappearances, most of us would never know. They would be arrested at three in the morning while you were asleep and you would never hear from them again. If, for some reason, there was some publicity attached to it, the deceptions would begin. Tellner and his family were terrorists. They had planned on blowing up a mall. They were dangerous. They were arrested for our safety. They are being treated well and are in prison. No, of course we're not torturing them, why would we do that? No, of course we're not exterminating them, we're just holding these dangerous terrorists in jail for our protection!

And so on. You would be kept just confused enough that you wouldn't be sure if action was warranted. By the time you figured it out, it would be too late. You would be isolated, afraid to speak out or attempt to organize lest you meet the same fate. So, confused and then isolated, chances are you keep quiet. It's what happened in Germany.

If such a thing were to happen here, it would not be obvious.

Very true. And if one really paid attention at the Holocaust Museum in DC, this is what one would realize.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Cruentus, did you actually read what the twit said? No? Didn't think so. I'll repeat it:



and



This is a campaign official from Giuliani's campaign. He has called for "getting rid" of all Muslims and and doesn't make any distinctions at all. That's why they interviewed him a second time after it was caught on video tape.

But do you know? In spite of all that I really do believe you, Cruentus. We disagree on a lot of things - many of which could be resolved in person over a couple beers - but you're no Good German. You would not "stand idly by the blood of your neighbor", and if what I fear came to pass I would be proud to be your comrade in arms.

Giuliani hasn't bothered to repudiate it. None of the other candidates have said anything. This is exactly what you said wasn't happening. And because I don't want it to get beyond rhetoric I sure as hell want Rudy kept far away from the White House.

The idea that every single one of the candidates for a major Party would support torture would have been unthinkable twenty years ago. It's happened. The idea that both Parties would go along with two successive pieces of legislation getting rid of our most sacred liberties and doing away with the very idea of checks and balances giving one man unchallenged authority would have been bad science fiction. Washington, Madison and Jefferson would have horsewhipped the lot of them. Teddy Roosevelt, Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower would have shot the man who suggested it. Nixon would have died of shame. Gay Edgar Hoover didn't try to implement his plans because he knew it wouldn't have passed even in the 1950s.

Tellner,

I do not like Rudy G.

I think the "Christians" in the USA are on a holy crusade.

I think you are reading more into this than is there based upon your quotes.

I could quote you and make it look like you have attacked me and or the art I train and teach.

You have a right to express your opinion.

Just do not expect everyone to believe the same as you do.

Note: I am still paranoid and I believe that no matter who wins (* See current signature *) I will be in for trouble. I have a feeling of paranoia as described by most, but I call it experience by me, that things will get worse for me and not better.

 

[tellner]

I, for one, hope that were I given such an illegal and unethical order, that I'd refuse to obey.

Failing that outright courage... I figure maybe if real criminals are hard enough to find, imagined criminals must be even harder to find, right?

I don't want to pressure you to answer this one here in the forum. It wouldn't be fair. But as a personal favor, some night soon, around three in the morning when there's nobody but you and G-d to listen, ask yourself honestly:

• How many of the guys in my department would obey that order?
• How many of them would have the courage to give up their jobs, their pensions, and their lives as police officers by dropping their badges on the police chief's desk?
• How many would face down Blackwater or Dyncorp mercenaries at gunpoint over a bunch of Muslims?
• How many would 'go along to get along'?
• What would happen to the ones who refused?
• How easy would it be to go after the next group the authorities target?

It's easier to cooperate with atrocity than you can imagine. The NOLAPD is legendary in its corruption. How many other cities have had the FBI show up at precincts and arrest the entire shift? How many cities have videos of cops looting TVs and jewelry from stores? Not many. But you'd think that even there a few would have refused to let Blackwater throw citizens out of their houses into the streets after a disaster. And maybe one or two would have refused to point shotguns at tired starving refugees who were trying to escape.

 

[tellner]

Rich, my paranoia has pretty firm bounds. But I honestly can't see any other way of parsing what the guy said. He wants to drive out or "get rid of" Muslims. All Muslims. He was given the chance to explain or change his story and said even more explicitly that he believes that all Muslims are enemies. There aren't any good one or bad ones.

And he said it as a campaign official for Candidate Giuliani who hasn't bothered to repudiate or spin it.

How else can you read it? What would your interpretation of his statements and the video be?

 

[newGuy12]

The idea that both Parties would go along with two successive pieces of legislation getting rid of our most sacred liberties and doing away with the very idea of checks and balances giving one man unchallenged authority would have been bad science fiction. Washington, Madison and Jefferson would have horsewhipped the lot of them.

Well, I certainly agree with that.

• How many would face down Blackwater or Dyncorp mercenaries at gunpoint over a bunch of Muslims?

That's still a long way off, and, we might not get there. I still have hope that things can turn around. After all, if we can just hang in there until the next election. Just keep what we can, then I hope things can get turned around.

As for the immediate future, it will be the ones with wealth that will be able to hire their own private police forces / armies. That's what happened after Katrina. The rich folks hired Blackwater to guard the art in their houses. It worked, too. When the local police were caught trying to "black bag" a house, they were turned away in short order by the mercenaries.

As for leaving the country, that would be a big step to take. I can't say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind, to get while the getting's good, but, I'm a man of modest means. There are times when I think its later than we realize. But, panic is never a good thing. Giuliani couldn't buy this election.

We need to think positive. We could see a mighty backlash this coming election!

 

[Cruentus]

I don't want to pressure you to answer this one here in the forum. It wouldn't be fair. But as a personal favor, some night soon, around three in the morning when there's nobody but you and G-d to listen, ask yourself honestly:

• How many of the guys in my department would obey that order?
• How many of them would have the courage to give up their jobs, their pensions, and their lives as police officers by dropping their badges on the police chief's desk?
• How many would face down Blackwater or Dyncorp mercenaries at gunpoint over a bunch of Muslims?
• How many would 'go along to get along'?
• What would happen to the ones who refused?
• How easy would it be to go after the next group the authorities target?

It's easier to cooperate with atrocity than you can imagine. The NOLAPD is legendary in its corruption. How many other cities have had the FBI show up at precincts and arrest the entire shift? How many cities have videos of cops looting TVs and jewelry from stores? Not many. But you'd think that even there a few would have refused to let Blackwater throw citizens out of their houses into the streets after a disaster. And maybe one or two would have refused to point shotguns at tired starving refugees who were trying to escape.

Unfortunatily, I have to agree that most people will get involved in group think and will not put their life on the line if there is an atrocity. Even another holocost. I just have to hope that enough people do stand up and fight to help turn the tables.

Now, as to John Deady; he is not a campaign manager. He is the co-chair of a special interest group called "Veterans for Rudy." This is a group that was organized to support Guliani, but it is not an official part of his campaign. This is important to recognize because you keep saying that it's his campaign manager when it clearly isn't; there is a huge difference between a manager of a special interest group and someone who works directly for the campaign.

Further, it is true that Deady is basically an ignorant racist. However, he clearly states that he does not support genocide. Further, he also clearly states that Guliani does not necessarily agree with his views:

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/...ds_by_remarks_about_muslims_and_adds_more.php

Deady:
" When I say get rid of them, I wasn't necessarily referring to genocide. What I was referring to is, stand up to them every time they stick up their heads and attack us."

I asked Deady if he thinks Rudy shares his views of Muslims. Deady replied: "Does he see the Muslim problem [this way]? I can't honestly say that he does..."

So, as I mentioned before, there aren't any plans for Genocide on anyone. Further, there is no proof here that Guliani is in support of such racist views. This is basically a manager of a special interest group who is ignorant, and who is blabbing all kinds of crap to the press not realizing that he is actually hurting the campaign that he is supporting. Further, I wouldn't expect Guliani to respond to this unless the larger media starts hammering him on it; he wouldn't draw attention to this (if he even knows about it) unless he has too.

So unless you have some quotes from Guliani himself saying similar things that Deady had said, I don't think it is fair to call Guliani a racist or a genocidist. In fact, I think that would be a completely innacurate and extremist thing to say without proof.

And as I said before, I really can appreciate not liking Guliani. I am just thinking that there are a lot of verifiable reasons to not like him outside of claims that he is a genocidist, which I really don't think we have proof of at all.

C.

 

[Makalakumu]

As for leaving the country, that would be a big step to take. I can't say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind, to get while the getting's good, but, I'm a man of modest means. There are times when I think its later than we realize. But, panic is never a good thing. Giuliani couldn't buy this election.

We need to think positive. We could see a mighty backlash this coming election!

I agree, we do need to think positively, but as a man of modest means myself, I see nothing wrong with putting the machinery in motion that will expediate the flight of me and mine if we need to. As in, finding a place to go. Finding out if you can work there. Figuring out a path to get there. Amassing the means to actually do it.

If I were a muslim living in this country, I'd do exactly that. Hell, I would have done it four years ago when major media figures started publishing books like, "A Case for Internment." This kind of zeitgeist has had a long time to work into the American collective unconcious and that now, all we really need, is a trigger.

Identify the triggers. Stay vigilant.

 

[Makalakumu]

Unfortunatily, I have to agree that most people will get involved in group think and will not put their life on the line if there is an atrocity. Even another holocost. I just have to hope that enough people do stand up and fight to help turn the tables.

Now, as to John Deady; he is not a campaign manager. He is the co-chair of a special interest group called "Veterans for Rudy." This is a group that was organized to support Guliani, but it is not an official part of his campaign. This is important to recognize because you keep saying that it's his campaign manager when it clearly isn't; there is a huge difference between a manager of a special interest group and someone who works directly for the campaign.

Further, it is true that Deady is basically an ignorant racist. However, he clearly states that he does not support genocide. Further, he also clearly states that Guliani does not necessarily agree with his views:

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/...ds_by_remarks_about_muslims_and_adds_more.php

Deady:
" When I say get rid of them, I wasn't necessarily referring to genocide. What I was referring to is, stand up to them every time they stick up their heads and attack us."

I asked Deady if he thinks Rudy shares his views of Muslims. Deady replied: "Does he see the Muslim problem [this way]? I can't honestly say that he does..."

So, as I mentioned before, there aren't any plans for Genocide on anyone. Further, there is no proof here that Guliani is in support of such racist views. This is basically a manager of a special interest group who is ignorant, and who is blabbing all kinds of crap to the press not realizing that he is actually hurting the campaign that he is supporting. Further, I wouldn't expect Guliani to respond to this unless the larger media starts hammering him on it; he wouldn't draw attention to this (if he even knows about it) unless he has too.

So unless you have some quotes from Guliani himself saying similar things that Deady had said, I don't think it is fair to call Guliani a racist or a genocidist. In fact, I think that would be a completely innacurate and extremist thing to say without proof.

And as I said before, I really can appreciate not liking Guliani. I am just thinking that there are a lot of verifiable reasons to not like him outside of claims that he is a genocidist, which I really don't think we have proof of at all.

C.

It's not that simple. People know in their minds that certain things are wrong and when they intellectualize that, the zeitgeist I was talking about before won't come to the surface. The clues to this are more subtle. They include times when we reach moments of great emotion. They include who we surround ourselves with. They include the unsaid implication of intellectualized statements. All of this slowly builds a case because you can see how in incrementally rationalizes something one previously believed was wrong.

John Deady is almost there. If you listen to Michael Savage, Michelle Malkin, John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, W, they are all getting there incrementally. Millions of Americans listen and agree with the what the first two have said. The last three have either stated agreement or have implicitly agreed by putting policies in place that would make this happen...

If there was some sort of trigger.

Cruentus, do you honestly think that any muslim in this country is going to remain a free person after the next terrorist attack? 9/11 proved that the people of this country will roll over and accept just about anything. Millions of people would beg for martial law if this country was hit again.

 

[michaeledward]

I would like to point out that during this campaign, we are hearing from all sides about plans to break down doors at three in the morning and disappear a group of people.

I want everyone to count the number of times they hear on the radio, or see on the television, or the bumperstickers on the backs of cars --- decrying 'No Amnesty for Illegals'. How often have you heard 'Sanctuary City', and 'Sanctuary Mansion'? Now, maybe you aren't in an early primary State, but I am hearing this every 20 minutes.

EDIT - let me connect those two paragraphs more clearly. I would like to point out that we have an electorate now that, if tomorrow morning, the news reports were such that all the undocumented workers in the country were rounded up, and being held in a restricted area in the middle of the desert as we begin the process of deporting them to their home countries, would stand up and cheer. There would be huge celebrations and congratualtory back-slapping all over the country. The undocumented workers have been so deamonized, that such a round up would be seen as a tremendous success for law and order. Violation of "HUMAN" rights would easily be ignored. Violations of "CIVIL" rights (the root word of civilization) would easily be ignored. We, the American Electorate would be behaving in an 'Inhuman' and 'uncivilized' manner; and we would be proud of it. How much further is it from that point, to internment camps? - END EDIT

This language and this attitude is mentally preparing the citizens of our country for a round-up of 'that group'.

If you are mentally prepared for our government to snatch and grab 12 million undocumented workers, who are picking your vegetables and cleaning your dirty laundry, you are not far from accepting the time when the government comes for the 80,000 American Sikhs or the million Americans who practice Islam.