Two guys, a gun, late at night

[Kittan Bachika]

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10

For those of you with firearms training was the shooter justified for acting in that fashion? Law student or not, he is going to have a helluva time convincing a judge and jury that he was in the right.

Now that I think about it, the simple solution would have been to run away. If he had to defned himself, then throwing the guy or a simpel wrist lock would have ended the situation.

Of course the shooter would have to train properly.

 

[Carol]

Valid VA carry license, VA and PA have reciprocity agreements, so the carry appears legal.

On surveillance video taken by Fox 29, one man was rushed by another group and then he pulls a gun.

Multiple attackers vs. single defender, and they were clearly physical attacks, not just an exchange of words.

Usually multiple attackers on one defender is justified. Where this gets sticky is that the defender (the shooter) seems to have instigated it with how he was pushing the people in the group.

Don't know what to make of all that.

 

[seasoned]

"Never bring a firearm to a fist fight". Discharging a gun with a crowd of people near by, with an out of town permit, after leaving a bar late at night. Not to mention the alcohol involved. Lucky no one was killed. The shooters life has just taken a turn for the worst, and rightfully so.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Usually multiple attackers on one defender is justified. Where this gets sticky is that the defender (the shooter) seems to have instigated it with how he was pushing the people in the group.

Don't know what to make of all that.

I am not a firearms expert nor am I lawyer but I believe the cliche is "If you pull it. Use it."

I do not think waving the gun around is going to help his case, if his only intention was to scare people off. From what I do know about using a firearm, you only draw your weapon when you fully intend to destroy your target.

 

[Carol]

I am not a firearms expert nor am I lawyer but I believe the cliche is "If you pull it. Use it."

I do not think waving the gun around is going to help his case, if his only intention was to scare people off. From what I do know about using a firearm, you only draw your weapon when you fully intend to destroy your target.

Was that what he was doing? If so, that's not good. To be honest I had a difficult time making out the events on the video, so I was going more on the written description of the account.

 

[72ronin]

Notice the woman in the dark clothing, getting and giving a bit of push and shove,

Then this guy comes in from the side and cuts off the movement of the group, draws his weapon and still gets challenged, he retreats a few steps then discharges the weapon several times.

(his weapon is first pointed at the direction of the man scuffling with the woman, he is then challenged by the other person who gets himself shot)

 

[jks9199]

There are some big pieces not mentioned in that piece.

Was the shooter drinking? If so, how much had he had to drink? What led to the "bump" of the guy doing chinups on the scaffold? Was it an innocent case of trying to get by, or something more?

If the shooter can articulate that he felt that he was in imminent danger of being seriously harmed by the group -- he's justified in using the gun to defend himself. Several on one are significant odds... It'll be more complicated if he instigated the event -- though he still could be justified.

Bottom line... he's been charged. He'd better have a good attorney. 'Cause he's got an uphill battle, anyway, as a "foreigner."

 

[72ronin]

Watch it again.. he places himself in front of the group. Being a foreigner obviously will have no bearing on the case.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's a prime of example of not wanting to rely entirely on a firearm as a self-defense option. I love guns, they provide considerable force when you need it. But when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail.

Better to have some other options, be they empty hand or OC Spray, or the like. A lot of OC being sprayed in this incident wouldn't have likely gotten anyone charged with anything, given the video of who was the aggressor. Likewise,a civilian Taser would have been justified. Even an expandable straight baton.

The bottom line is that anyone who carries a firearm for self-defense must keep in mind that there are situations where it might be ill advised to deploy it if other options are available.

 

[jks9199]

Watch it again.. he places himself in front of the group. Being a foreigner obviously will have no bearing on the case.

Can you hear what's being said? I can't. The question on the use of force, especially lethal force, is whether or not a reasonable person in those circumstances would have felt that the use of force is necessary to prevent imminent bodily harm. What's said by the group can certainly influence that question.

Being from another state will indeed have a bearing when it comes to trial; while PA and VA have reciprocity for CCW permits, the laws in the two states are different. It also will have an influence on a judge or jury.

 

[72ronin]

Regardless of what happens before the camera footage, it cannot be dismissed that he - caught up to the pack and then challenged THEM with a firearm...

A reasonable person would not take on a pack of men for such minor reasons as a bump or whatever.

Carrying a firearm, possibly being drunk out on a friday night and having a childish attitude and inflated ego will always end in this way.

Where was the danger to his life? He initiated the event..

To simply discuss the issue of lethal force in this case is not on. This guys been watching too many cop shows yeah? What was his intention, a citizens arrest LOL

Oh, being from another state, silly me. I thought you said "foreigner".

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Urgggh.

With what I have to go on, this is *NOT* looking good for him( and that is a very masterpiece of understatement).

 

[David43515]

Looking at the video there`s alot that we don`t know. Was the woman being shoved with the shooter or the other group? Was he trying to protect her? Did she leave him for the other guys and he got pissed?

And I couldn`t find anything that said he`d been drinking. Where was that? (Not arguing the point, just curious)

 

[Carol]

Looking at the video there`s alot that we don`t know. Was the woman being shoved with the shooter or the other group? Was he trying to protect her? Did she leave him for the other guys and he got pissed?

And I couldn`t find anything that said he`d been drinking. Where was that? (Not arguing the point, just curious)

I don't know if there were any other sources that stated he had been drinking, or if that was just a likely possibility as the people involved were college students out at 230am Sat Night/Sun Morning

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Here is some more coverage on the shooting.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail


http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail

 

[Gary Crawford]

Of course, laws vary state to state, but the purpose of the conceal carry permit is special circumstances like being the owner or manager of a business with a responsibility of carrying cash for deposit or a specially trained person protecting specified individuals.If I was a judge in this case, I would be firstly interested in why the shooter was carrying the weapon at that time. I am aware of Tennessee law concerning "conceal carry"permits and personal self defense is NOT an allowable situation to conceal a weapon by law.

 

[David43515]

I`m not sure I can think of any reason more important than it bing for self defense. I guess that`s why they make a big difference between "may issue" and "shall issue" states.