Toes pointing inward

Gerry Seymour

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What kind of stance are you using? I can't find a stance that knee and toes are pointing toward different directions.
It's not about stance. My toes don't line up with my knees. If my toes point forward, my knees are turned slightly inward.
 

KabutoKouji

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I'm unable to edit my last post so I'll have to post here - the movement before the first move I have a picture of is an inward forearm block type movement, but this is done in turtle back and is essentially the chamber/martial hand for the uppercutty punch straight after, it would be I suppose similarto the first 'block' of 'Brush Knee' in TaiJiJuan.
 

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What kind of stance are you using? I can't find a stance that knee and toes are pointing toward different directions.

I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet. So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction. This is hard on the knees!
 

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Most of Okinawan karate comes from CMA, and White Crane is allegedly a big part of it. Sanchin kata came from China. Heres an interesting video of the variations of Sanchin, Chinese and Okinawan, side by side...


Goju Ryus Tensho kata makes extensive use of the Sanchin stance as well. Gojus founder (Chojun Miyagi) allegedly developed the kata from what he learned in White Crane in China (Fujian White Crane?).

Ah that is so cool to see :D

I love love love Sanchin kata, but it's good to see that some styles don't seem to do it with as much tension. In Kyokushin we did it with absolute full 100% tension in every part of the body, and hard ibuki breathing too (closed throat, forceful loud breathing). Not to hijack the thread though, I'll have to research all the different ways of doing Sanchin (with full, medium, little tension, softer/harder breathing) and moreso look up the benefits for each..

I think I will stick to toes in line with the knee.

My toes don't line up with my knee. My big toes used to, but even they don't now.

It's not about stance. My toes don't line up with my knees. If my toes point forward, my knees are turned slightly inward.

Yeah I was gonna ask about that, I'm the same gp. If my knees are pointing forward, my toes/feet naturally point outwards at a fair angle (duck style). I wonder what us folk do in this case? [emoji14] And whether it's biomechanically more challenging for us? Is it best to keep our feet/knees in the way they naturally fall, or try to force toes to face the knees I wonder...

I would think keep them how they naturally are.. that way it wouldn't be forcing the body to do things that aren't natural to it.. because this then affects all other stances, nekoashi dachi (cat stance) and kokutsu dachi (back leaning stance) are a little different then with different foot/knee angles..
 

KabutoKouji

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Ah that is so cool to see :D

I love love love Sanchin kata, but it's good to see that some styles don't seem to do it with as much tension.

in one of Jesse's videos he said an old Okinawan Master was unable to eat curry anymore because tense Sanchins had given him chronic heamarrhoids :s
 

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in one of Jesse's videos he said an old Okinawan Master was unable to eat curry anymore because tense Sanchins had given him chronic heamarrhoids :s
Haha yeah I remember that video actually, big fan of Sensei Jesse, yeah I can't imagine it would be good for you long term that amount of tension... And I'd know, I've currently got severe physical issues because of overtension! I've played around with Sanchin before and done everything much softer and it was nice. Although perhaps Tensho kata was developed as a bit of a counter to the tension of Sanchin? Thought I read that somewhere..
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yeah I was gonna ask about that, I'm the same gp. If my knees are pointing forward, my toes/feet naturally point outwards at a fair angle (duck style). I wonder what us folk do in this case?
emoji14.png
And whether it's biomechanically more challenging for us? Is it best to keep our feet/knees in the way they naturally fall, or try to force toes to face the knees I wonder...

I would think keep them how they naturally are.. that way it wouldn't be forcing the body to do things that aren't natural to it.. because this then affects all other stances, nekoashi dachi (cat stance) and kokutsu dachi (back leaning stance) are a little different then with different foot/knee angles..
My view is that it should be driven by the mechanics needed. If the position is for balance, often the foot position is more important, unless the feet are next to each other. In any other stance, there's a bit of sacrifice of stability to the inside of one foot. Pivoting the big toe back toward center (for folks like us) off-sets that sacrifice. When the consideration is aim (as with a kick), the knee is more important. I've taken time to consider which matters in each situation where what I was taught probably assumed knees and toes pointed the same way (as with stances where my instructor would say, "The feet should be pointed forward, so the knees stay on target."). In most cases, a quick bit of experimentation will either identify which is important, or show that it makes little difference which, so long as I don't go beyond the two bounds (knee dominant, to toes dominant). Doing this has caused me to use different directions.
 

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I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet. So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction. This is hard on the knees!
I wonder if some of those folks just have that natural duck-footedness that I (and apparently Simon) have. If I stand slightly toes-in, my knees are significantly turned in. To give you an example, when I learned our basic punch, it was done from a "straight stance". the toes are pointed directly to the front, feet side-by-side. The idea is that the knees will then be pointed forward - you're supposed to be able to bend your knees, and they point directly forward (parallel to each other). When I do that, my knees converge, and will actually touch if I squat.

And yes, it is hard on the knees. I suspect some of my knee problems are simply due to the natural mis-alignment of my feet.
 
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KabutoKouji

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yes I like Jesse a lot - i found him through the McCarthy version of the Bubishi, and particularly enjoyed his Okinawa series of videos. He has the right attitude to TMA imo, and it is interesting that his brother competes in MMA but Jesse decided to continue his parent's dojo.
 

KabutoKouji

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And I'd know, I've currently got severe physical issues because of overtension! I've played around with Sanchin before and done everything much softer and it was nice

yeah I'm pretty tense and over the top when I perform moves or patterns, because I came from ITF TKD (and our instructor really constantly wanted 'maximum power' in every move), I still find it very hard to 'flow' enough during Lien Bu Quan etc.
 

JR 137

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Ah that is so cool to see :D

I love love love Sanchin kata, but it's good to see that some styles don't seem to do it with as much tension. In Kyokushin we did it with absolute full 100% tension in every part of the body, and hard ibuki breathing too (closed throat, forceful loud breathing). Not to hijack the thread though, I'll have to research all the different ways of doing Sanchin (with full, medium, little tension, softer/harder breathing) and moreso look up the benefits for each..







Yeah I was gonna ask about that, I'm the same gp. If my knees are pointing forward, my toes/feet naturally point outwards at a fair angle (duck style). I wonder what us folk do in this case? [emoji14] And whether it's biomechanically more challenging for us? Is it best to keep our feet/knees in the way they naturally fall, or try to force toes to face the knees I wonder...

I would think keep them how they naturally are.. that way it wouldn't be forcing the body to do things that aren't natural to it.. because this then affects all other stances, nekoashi dachi (cat stance) and kokutsu dachi (back leaning stance) are a little different then with different foot/knee angles..
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet. So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction. This is hard on the knees!
Agree that knee should not pass over toes is the general guideline.

By using the "shin bite", if your opponent resists, you may have to drop your knee on the ground. As long as your heel is up and the relative position of your knee is still not over your toes, you should be OK.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I still find it very hard to 'flow' enough during Lien Bu Quan etc.
How to flow through your form depends on your application. If in your mind, you think about

- solo moves, you won't flow.
- combos, you will flow.

For example, when you throw 3 punches, you can do the following ways:

1. fast, fast, fast - you try to knock 3 holes on your opponent's body.
2. fast, slow, fast - you try to knock 1 hole on your opponent's body, if fail, you try to use the 2nd move to set up the 3rd move.
3. slow, slow, fast - Your try to use the 1st and 2nd moves to set up the 3rd move.
4. ...

Both 2 and 3 can flow better than 1. If in your mind, you are using one move (or moves) to set up next move, you can flow.

Another example is a kick followed by a punch. If you

- put 100% power on both your kick and punch, you won't flow.
- only put 30% power on your kick (you assume your opponent will drop his arm to block it), you then use 100% power on your punch, you can flow.
 
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_Simon_

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My view is that it should be driven by the mechanics needed. If the position is for balance, often the foot position is more important, unless the feet are next to each other. In any other stance, there's a bit of sacrifice of stability to the inside of one foot. Pivoting the big toe back toward center (for folks like us) off-sets that sacrifice. When the consideration is aim (as with a kick), the knee is more important. I've taken time to consider which matters in each situation where what I was taught probably assumed knees and toes pointed the same way (as with stances where my instructor would say, "The feet should be pointed forward, so the knees stay on target."). In most cases, a quick bit of experimentation will either identify which is important, or show that it makes little difference which, so long as I don't go beyond the two bounds (knee dominant, to toes dominant). Doing this has caused me to use different directions.

An some interesting thoughts, I'm definitely gonna have to experiment a bit, but cool what you said about balance and aim. I'll play around with that. That being said my feet have never really posed an issue in all the years of training, I just never really thought about it before! I don't want to damage anything

yes I like Jesse a lot - i found him through the McCarthy version of the Bubishi, and particularly enjoyed his Okinawa series of videos. He has the right attitude to TMA imo, and it is interesting that his brother competes in MMA but Jesse decided to continue his parent's dojo.

Yeah it is interesting their different directions.. but I get a lot out of his videos, especially his drills etc. I bought his Karate Flexibility and Mobility program recently and have started to do drills from there, it's really good. Only thing is there doesn't appear to be any structure or program design to it, so just gotta work through it how you see fit.

I also attended his seminar when he came to Melbourne a few years ago, that was a great experience... 40 plus degree day haha but was awesome


yeah I'm pretty tense and over the top when I perform moves or patterns, because I came from ITF TKD (and our instructor really constantly wanted 'maximum power' in every move), I still find it very hard to 'flow' enough during Lien Bu Quan etc.

Yeah am definitely learning nowadays to relax more... actually tends to help power generation so much more... And I've tested that on the heavy bag too


Haha ah intense man :D. I certainly remember going through Sanchin 'under duress'. But wowza... I guess it's good to practice with that much tension every now and then, but to me I don't know if that would really teach correct alignment in the long run...? Maybe stancewise initially, but teaching yourself to hold that much tension IN ORDER TO maintain correct alignment doesn't seem right... the ability to move into and out of stance with ease, flow and precision would be compromised... just a thought! Am not sure if tension is released in the steps forward etc in this version...
 

Gerry Seymour

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An some interesting thoughts, I'm definitely gonna have to experiment a bit, but cool what you said about balance and aim. I'll play around with that. That being said my feet have never really posed an issue in all the years of training, I just never really thought about it before! I don't want to damage anything
If you haven't needed to think of it, it's probably not causing problems. Just pay a bit of attention to the torque on your knees.
 

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I've seen some Wing Chun people that took the idea of "inward pressure" at the knees a bit to far to the point that their knees point further inward than their feet. So the knee and the toes were not on the same line or pointing in the same direction. This is hard on the knees!

Like Gerry, my knees and feet do not align, especially on the right side. If my knee is pointing straight forward, my foot angles outward. You know, what they call "duck footed" ...so my knee is always pointing inward more than my foot.

In another style, I had an over-zealous instructor try to physically correct my stance and nearly messed up my knee. I guess he thought I was just being stubborn. When he realized that he was injuring me, he told me that it was my own fault for having "the wrong kind of legs". Sheeesh!
 

Gerry Seymour

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Like Gerry, my knees and feet do not align, especially on the right side. If my knee is pointing straight forward, my foot angles outward. You know, what they call "duck footed" ...so my knee is always pointing inward more than my foot.

In another style, I had an over-zealous instructor try to physically correct my stance and nearly messed up my knee. I guess he thought I was just being stubborn. When he realized that he was injuring me, he told me that it was my own fault for having "the wrong kind of legs". Sheeesh!
Well, it wasn't a wise decision, Geezer. Someone your age should know better, damnit!
 
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callMeHawkEye

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So why does wing chun train with such a weird stance? What is the function of the low horse stance like this with the weird pigeon toe? Why not use the traditional standard horse stance?

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So why does wing chun train with such a weird stance? What is the function of the low horse stance like this with the weird pigeon toe? Why not use the traditional standard horse stance?

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Not all WC trains in that "weird" stance. BTW, how do you define weird? :D

And by "low horse stance"...are you meaning the pigeon toed stance? A "low horse" in some WC is in the pole form, but the toes are not pigeon toed.

Can you supply a pic or example photo of what you mean by "standard horse stance"?
 

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I myself am new to the style of Wing Chun but I did ask this last week because I have a bit of a knee problem. I was told it helps to strength up your legs, create your root strength. At first I found this such a weird stance but after a few weeks it did not really bug me. I also find my knees feel good for a few days after training.

So why does wing chun train with such a weird stance? What is the function of the low horse stance like this with the weird pigeon toe? Why not use the traditional standard horse stance?

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