To be or not to be

[terryl965]

If TKD is not a well rounded self defense and is not 100% bullit proof what Art is, please give me a comparision from your art and I'll give you one of mine.
So many people have the Ideal of TKD not being able to use in close quarters like in a bar, well I have had to use my training in those type of condition and it worked well for me. TKD is more than Olympics style high flying kicks, it does have hand to hand work involved as well have some ground work. The meaning of Tae Kwondo is the art of hand and foot.
Terry

 

[Brother John]

TKD is more than Olympics style high flying kicks, it does have hand to hand work involved as well have some ground work. Terry

Hey Terry-

I appreciate TKD for what a great many of it's practitioners can do w/in the context of TKD! It's a pleasure to watch a skilled and well prepared technitian of the art put his heart into its execution!!

But after having had several years in TKD with more than one instructor and visiting many friendly dojang...I've never seen "ground work" more than maybe a dragon-tail sweep or flying scisor take down. Other than that, I've never even heard of it.
Could just be me.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the fact that TKD (from a knowledgeable and experienced instructor) contains much more than just kicks.... I think a lot of people have a problem with the STRONG emphasis on kicking above all else and on the equally prevalent over emphasis on the sport aspect of the art.

Your Brother
John

 

[terryl965]

Brother John you have brought up some good points, my first question the age of the instructors that tought you are they more in there late 30's and older or more of the 20 years old and there linage was it more from just a sport linage. If not they would not do any ground work for they have no knowledge of it.

TKD has become a water down sport for the masses I know a few Master that still incorporate all they old ways of TKD, the same way I was tought, I have been told that some of my techniques are from other Arts and that may be but my Master tought me and he never mention anything but TKD. No akido.kenpo,jujitsu just TKD with all the techs.

I also emphasis alot on the kicks but there are certain kicks that can be done in close quarters with the knee and I know alot of people do not incorporate knee's and TKD but I was tought that also.

Terry

 

[Laborn]

jsut like my tkd, i have never heard of tkd putting ground work in their training. My instructer tells me *dont get taken to the ground* he says he has never been taken to the ground by an attacker, great, for him , but what if i DO get taken down? what then? i practice elboes and knees for close corners, but im not trained in my dojang on how to defend from that.

 

[terryl965]

jsut like my tkd, i have never heard of tkd putting ground work in their training. My instructer tells me *dont get taken to the ground* he says he has never been taken to the ground by an attacker, great, for him , but what if i DO get taken down? what then? i practice elboes and knees for close corners, but im not trained in my dojang on how to defend from that.

Well not saying anything bad about anyone my first question would be his age, the second linage, th third and most important is, to say don't get taken down in today world of fighting is stupid in my opion 95% of all fights go to the ground and I find it hard to believe if he's been atact alot that no-one has taken him to the ground. Like I sad earlier some techs I know have been calle dother than TKD but my instructor just incorporated it with are training and never mention anything but TKD. So to my knowledge it is what it is.

Also before TKD father tought Karate and Judo in the military some of that has been incorporated as well into my training over 40 years of it. So many seminars and training session with other artist helps pick up things here and there over the years. So I guess I personally incrporate everything into my workouts just never thought about it being named something else.

Terry

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Hey Terry-
.
.
.
But after having had several years in TKD with more than one instructor and visiting many friendly dojang...I've never seen "ground work" more than maybe a dragon-tail sweep or flying scisor take down. Other than that, I've never even heard of it.
Could just be me.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the fact that TKD (from a knowledgeable and experienced instructor) contains much more than just kicks.... I think a lot of people have a problem with the STRONG emphasis on kicking above all else and on the equally prevalent over emphasis on the sport aspect of the art.

Your Brother
John

You're right on with your post Brother. I question the way my art is being taught, the emphasis on the sporting side vs self-defense techs, and just the promotions that are given sometimes... :idunno:


That's why I'd like to cross-train in BJJ. But, I'll always be a hard core dedicated Taekwondo practitioner though, it's my base...:asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Brother John you have brought up some good points, my first question the age of the instructors that tought you are they more in there late 30's and older or more of the 20 years old and there linage was it more from just a sport linage. If not they would not do any ground work for they have no knowledge of it.
Terry

Good point! My first TKD instructor was NOT from a sport lineage and he taught realistic self-defence as well as the art aspects of TKD. My sport TKD school (this was twenty years ago), with a 23 year old instructor, taught little self-defence, and what he did teach was not very practical.

Both can have their place, just so long as the sports school isn't telling their students that they are learning hardcore "self-defence". However, the old style school that I started with was outnumbered 10 to 1 by sports schools then. Now, twenty years later, and with the growth of Olympic TKD, the ratio is closer to 20 to 1 or even 30 to 1, so it is possible to visit a LOT of schools without seeing what Terry incorporates into his student's training.

 

[bignick]

I think a lot of people have a problem with the STRONG emphasis on kicking above all else and on the equally prevalent over emphasis on the sport aspect of the art.

You forgot to bold, italicize and underline STRONG

 

[Brother John]

You forgot to bold, italicize and underline STRONG

implying 'strong kicks' or just Really emphasizing that today's TKD over-emphasizes this one weapon??


Your Brother
John

 

[FearlessFreep]

Interesting that the forms, at least the ones I've learned so far, put a strong emphasis on hand strikes and arm blocks.

I thought the chestnut of '95% of all fights go to the ground' (or whatever percentage) had been disproven as only applying to LEO's who were trying to control/arrest and aggressor.

What I've seen of fights is that they 'go to the ground' because )a accident or b) one or both of the fighters want to go to the ground, and succeed. Not to say that a fight won't end up on the ground and you should be prepared for that, but I thnk to assume that a fight *will* go to the ground and that therefore you have to train a lot for ground fighting is to ignore the possibility of staying on your feet and to use the natural strengths of Taekwondo to try to keep the fight where you want it, where you can be most effective.

But, yeah, TKD forms show elbows, knees, and lots of hand strikes of various kinds; don't just view them as abstracions in the form but train then as striking weapons (I practice elbows, knife hands, ridgehands, hooks, etc...againt my heavy bad to work on power, etc... simply because I try to think through attack/defense scenarios and they seem like powerful tools)

One thing I see is that it's very hard to generate power in a strike from the ground.

 

[Brother John]

Interesting that the forms, at least the ones I've learned so far, put a strong emphasis on hand strikes and arm blocks.

But, yeah, TKD forms show elbows, knees, and lots of hand strikes of various kinds; don't just view them as abstracions in the form but train then as striking weapons (I practice elbows, knife hands, ridgehands, hooks, etc...againt my heavy bad to work on power, etc... simply because I try to think through attack/defense scenarios and they seem like powerful tools).

Yes. The majority of the "old" Hyung actually came from Okinawan and Japanese Karate, especially Shotokan. So their techniques w/in the forms tend to be more "Karate'ish", but in training the hands aren't generally as prevalent. The new forms are really taken off of the old templates, very similar in many respects.
But the fact remains: Startle most TKD'ists and they'll almost reflexively lift a foot... the feet are trained to a high level..and that needs to be respected: because a well placed/timed/executed kick is beautiful and POWERFUL..
but I like to keep my feet on the ground as much as possible when facing violence.

But: Forms or not, TKD does place a great premium on kicking.

Your Brother
John

 

[FearlessFreep]

But: Forms or not, TKD does place a great premium on kicking.

No doubt, the question is, is that good or bad.

I think the answerr is 'it depends'. Is the emphasis on kicks unhealthy to the point of exclusion of other valuable techniques or is it just a powerful part of a larger body of tecniques available? I think that depends on the artist

 

[bignick]

implying 'strong kicks' or just Really emphasizing that today's TKD over-emphasizes this one weapon??


Your Brother
John

over-emphasizes

 

[arnisador]

But the fact remains: Startle most TKD'ists and they'll almost reflexively lift a foot...

Yup.

the feet are trained to a high level..and that needs to be respected: because a well placed/timed/executed kick is beautiful and POWERFUL..
but I like to keep my feet on the ground as much as possible when facing violence.

I think there's a lot to be said for this. Kicking has its place, but standing is important too. There are so many variables in a street encounter--having one's feet firmly on the ground makes sense a lot of the time.

I was primarily a kicker when younger (in Karate) but have more and more come to think that hands should play the bigger role.

 

[Gemini]

I was primarily a kicker when younger (in Karate) but have more and more come to think that hands should play the bigger role.

We teach that from the beginning. I guess there's just something wrong with my school. In most encounters, even if it doesn't go tothe ground, does go within striking range. Strikes and blocks are key.

Terry. I don't think there is an art out there that's 100% of anything. I think TKD, when taught in its entirety, is as good as anything you'll ever find.

Startle most TKD'ists and they'll almost reflexively lift a foot.

Yes. We call it the "Hydrant" maneuver.

 

[FearlessFreep]

In our school, self-defense is part of the training from day one, and in a lot of cases, especially early on a lot of the self-defense involves using hands, both for scaping and for counter-strikes, etc....so hand use is natural from the beginning. I would not understimate the usefulness of an inner block as a strike to various targets, including to break grasps. Elbow to the face and punch to the solar plexus are also powerful for effect.

Nevertheless, kicks are also very powerful and useful and I would't gainsay using them. Like all techniques, the technique itself doesn't mean much per-se, it's knowing when and how to use it. "Knowing when" is understanding the situation and the distance and what your oppoinent is doing, "knowing how" is to execute with speed, confidence, and power

If I dazed my opponent with an elbow to the face, I might very well use a roundhouse to the head to finish the job, but probably not as an opening strike. Leg strikes can reach quite a range and if my opponent was hivering just outside hand strike range, thinking they were safe, then a kick from a closing move could come in unexpected.

 

[ChineseKempoJerry]

I have been in many scraps. Most of them, I stayed on my feet. I have and am learning to fight on the ground. Once you know how to take one to the ground, you learn how to defend.

I train with many styles. I have trained with traditional TKD students and they are just as effective as some of the other styles I train with. Emphasis is diferent with other styles, but you can only kick and punch so many ways.

Food for thought.

Best Regards,

Jerry

 

[Brad Dunne]

Ground fighting, as most people seem to define it, per the UFC is and was not taught in TKD (Old School). The training was directed at getting to one's feet asap and conversely the techniques taught were designed for that. I honestly feel that most folks do themselves a dis-service by thinking that UFC ground fighting is the way to go in the street.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I don't take UFC seriously as being any more like street fighting than TKD sparring or any other sport. They have scoring rules and safety rules, both of which affect tactics and techniques. It is what is is.

One thing I have taken from UFC is that if someone likes to fight standing up and has good defense against being taken down, then the fight can stay up. It's just a matter of making sure you train to fight the fight you want to fight and part of that is working to keep the fight where you want to.

 

[ChineseKempoJerry]

Agree most whole heartedly.

Best Regards,

Jerry