Tiger/Big Cat Styles
- Thread starter fenglong
- Start date
Well... yeah there are certain "it" things. That video was decidedly & definitely not it. Hung Ga is about as close to it as you will get in TCMA.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I have heard of a Shantung Black Tiger system, tho I know nothing about it. I think Tak Wah Eng and Paul Koh in NY City practice this system and I belive Paul has written a book about it. I've not read the book, don't know anything about it.
I've not heard of a Panther/Leopard system, nor any other big cat system. I've mostly only heard of these things in the context of being a portion of a larger system, like Sean mentioned Hung Gar.
In other places there are the five animals, but for the most part all I've heard of with this is as a portion of a larger system, there being a Five-Animals form within the system that is meant to accomplish a certain aspect of the training, one part of the big picture. Even my system of Tibetan White Crane has a Five Animals form as part of the curriculum. But there is no complete animal system for each of the five animals, at least in this kind of context.
I don't know of any system that is completely "Five-Animals". If it exists, I just don't know anything about it. I've heard this mentioned in reference to what Ark Wong was teaching in LA, but I just don't know anything about it.
Th Shandong Black Tiger is a hybrid system from what I hear. I don't know that much about it.
As far as Panther/Leopard, your biggest examples are CLF and Bak Mei that I'm aware of, and practice. Otherwise, FC is the correct.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
There are some other systems that use Tiger in their names, but I do not believe they are actual tiger systems. A couple of kenpo derived systems come to mind, there is a White Tiger Kenpo in the Chicago area, under the direction of Tom Ammiano, his student posts here sometimes under the name ZREX. Mr. Ammiano is in the Ed Parker kenpo lineage thru McSweeny, he changed the system to meet his own designs. I do not know where the name Tiger comes from in this context.
There is also Bok Fu Do which means White Tiger Way, out here on the West Coast San Francisco area, under Richard Lee, an offshoot of Tracy kenpo, also derived from Ed Parker's lineage. Mr. Lee also changed and complied things into his kenpo to create his own method. Again I do not know where the Bok Fu, White Tiger, in the name of his system comes from. His student sometimes posts here under the name JDINCA.
These are both kenpo methods that can ultimately be traced back to Ed Parker. They may have some kung fu elements adopted into them but I do not believe you could consider them to be true Tiger Methods. I only point these out to preemptively eliminate confusion that may arise if you stumble onto these.
There is also Bok Fu Do which means White Tiger Way, out here on the West Coast San Francisco area, under Richard Lee, an offshoot of Tracy kenpo, also derived from Ed Parker's lineage. Mr. Lee also changed and complied things into his kenpo to create his own method. Again I do not know where the Bok Fu, White Tiger, in the name of his system comes from. His student sometimes posts here under the name JDINCA.
These are both kenpo methods that can ultimately be traced back to Ed Parker. They may have some kung fu elements adopted into them but I do not believe you could consider them to be true Tiger Methods. I only point these out to preemptively eliminate confusion that may arise if you stumble onto these.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Fu Jow Pai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Jow_Pai
Hei hu quan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hei_hu_quan
Leopard Kung Fu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_Kung_Fu
Xingyiquan, 12 Animals, Tiger (the only one of the 12 Animals I know)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan#Animal_forms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Jow_Pai
Hei hu quan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hei_hu_quan
Leopard Kung Fu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_Kung_Fu
Xingyiquan, 12 Animals, Tiger (the only one of the 12 Animals I know)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan#Animal_forms
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I don't often like these wikipedia entries, they are so short and so vague in description that it makes me think whomever wrote them might be just kinda making it up, writing about what he thinks it ought to be in some fantasy world, or else maybe if there was an actual system it has gone extinct so nobody really knows anything about it except some very general and generic information.
The comments in the Leopard section that I find particularly amusing is the postulation that leopard is a "midway point" between tiger and crane styles. In my mind, that is just a bizzare statement for that author to make, it's just completely unsupportable and is even a weird idea to begin with. If it exists as a distinct system, why would it not be able to stand on its own rather than have to be seen as somehow a compromise between two other systems? How is the author defining tiger, and crane? I know there are at least a couple of very different and distinct crane systems, so to which is he referring? Or is it something completely different, another Crane method altogether? There is no clearly defined frame of reference for such a statement. I think those kinds of statements just illustrate that the author doesn't know much at all.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
It is what it is, look at it as a beginning to researching a topic.
The only one I have any experience with is the Xingyiquan Tiger and the only other one I have talked to anyone about is Fu Jow Pai. I believe that was the style that my sifu was talking about when he was telling me about a friend of my Sigung who was once a great martial artist but in his old age was crippled due to training to much external. And a friend of mine who trained it in NYC when he was in college who was intrigued by the focus of the attacks (what can I say, he was in Med school) but no so happy with the hand conditioning (and he is now a doctor). So today he is a Wing Chun guy
The only one I have any experience with is the Xingyiquan Tiger and the only other one I have talked to anyone about is Fu Jow Pai. I believe that was the style that my sifu was talking about when he was telling me about a friend of my Sigung who was once a great martial artist but in his old age was crippled due to training to much external. And a friend of mine who trained it in NYC when he was in college who was intrigued by the focus of the attacks (what can I say, he was in Med school) but no so happy with the hand conditioning (and he is now a doctor). So today he is a Wing Chun guy
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
I study Nick Cerio's Kenpo which is mainly of Japanese influence as it stands today.
Interestingly enough Professor Cerio's Kenpo started off as being mostly Chinese, but then as his studies shifted towards the Japanese arts; it became more and more Japanese based up until his death in 1998. The black belt kenpo forms are all still heavily Chinese in flavor and all have "Big Cat" names. Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, and the final form of Circle of the Panther. Even though Cerio changed most of his style to fit Japanese culture he left the black forms alone and kept their "Chinese Influenced" names as is.
Interestingly enough Professor Cerio's Kenpo started off as being mostly Chinese, but then as his studies shifted towards the Japanese arts; it became more and more Japanese based up until his death in 1998. The black belt kenpo forms are all still heavily Chinese in flavor and all have "Big Cat" names. Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, and the final form of Circle of the Panther. Even though Cerio changed most of his style to fit Japanese culture he left the black forms alone and kept their "Chinese Influenced" names as is.
WC_lun
Senior Master
I've met a few guys in tournaments that did Black Tiger and Leopard systems. Intersting stuff. The only practical experience I myself have is with Tiger and Leopard as part of a larger animal based system.
I got to say that one of the things that kinda annoy me about the Kenpo systems that use Tiger as part of thier name is the footwork is almost entirely from Japanese systems. Part of the strength of CMA tiger systems is the low stances, designed to drag an opponent off thier base. The Japanese footwork doesn't work the same way. So the hands are saying, "Hey! I'm a Tiger!!" while the feet say, "Umm, maybe I'm a crane..." Not a big deal or anything, just a little peeve of mine.
I got to say that one of the things that kinda annoy me about the Kenpo systems that use Tiger as part of thier name is the footwork is almost entirely from Japanese systems. Part of the strength of CMA tiger systems is the low stances, designed to drag an opponent off thier base. The Japanese footwork doesn't work the same way. So the hands are saying, "Hey! I'm a Tiger!!" while the feet say, "Umm, maybe I'm a crane..." Not a big deal or anything, just a little peeve of mine.
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fenglong
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@Flying Crane
thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth".
thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.
@WC_lun
tiger systems with japanese footwork? are you using the word kenpo for exclusively japanese MA or like the japanese do it for MA in general? just because they are deep stances it doesnt mean they are japanese, so what makes you think so?
from what i learned about tiger styles is that the earliest ones on which most others seem to base on relate to the black tiger style of shaolin and the hung gar, which itself relates to tibetan boxing brough over by a tibetan monk.
thats a big problem you have everywhere humans are involved. some many stuff up, some share their blurred perception of the "truth".
thats why i stopped dedicating myself to a single master and do a lot of own research.
@WC_lun
tiger systems with japanese footwork? are you using the word kenpo for exclusively japanese MA or like the japanese do it for MA in general? just because they are deep stances it doesnt mean they are japanese, so what makes you think so?
from what i learned about tiger styles is that the earliest ones on which most others seem to base on relate to the black tiger style of shaolin and the hung gar, which itself relates to tibetan boxing brough over by a tibetan monk.
Ummm... where did you get that?? That's so not correct.
Hung Kuen is pure Southern Shaolin & like most Southern Shaolin styles is a short to mid range style. Wong Fei Hung was "educated" by one of the Wong (no relation) brothers from Lion's Roar & incorporate some of their long arm techniques & theories into his family's Hung Kuen but that's it. Hung Kuen isn't Tibetan... not even close. Look at some of the village styles
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fenglong
Green Belt
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everyone who has done some history research for a while knows there is no such thing as "pure" styles. everything gets influenced, inspired or is based on something else, usually all of that.
also, i never said hung gar was tibetan, i said it relates to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_(martial_art)#Tibetan_or_Chinese_Martial_Art.3F
also, i never said hung gar was tibetan, i said it relates to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_(martial_art)#Tibetan_or_Chinese_Martial_Art.3F
I'm quite familiar with the process of researching, especially TCMAs.
Hung Ga is not "related" to Tibetan styles. It was influenced with certain techniques & theories, but it is stand alone Chinese. Lama Pai, Bak Hok, Hop Ga... those are related to Tibetan Lion's Roar. They are children of it. Hung Kuen borrowed from it. That no way makes it "related" to it that it would me if I borrowed your lawn mower.
Quoting Wiki doesn't do much for serious support to your position by the way.
