H
Hwarang
Guest
Instead of trying to do 5 simultaneous discussions about various areas in Hwarang Do, I'm trying to divide the discussions into several threads. So this is the "The monk Suam Dosa and Hwarang Do thread":
I'm again writing this quickly so I'm sure there's errors. A couple of paragraphs are taken from hwarangdo.com to save time, otherwise this is my text:
It seems most questions/attacks centers around three main questions:
1. Did GM Lee and his brother train under a monk?
2. What is the lineage, it is really Silla martial art?
3. Did the story change/what does GM Lee actually say?
Please let me know if there are other main issues!
Introduction:
1. Buddhist monks really don't train martial art, do they?
No, not all of them, but some certainly do. This is known in at least China, Japan and Korea. In Korea there are long traditions for monks training martial arts throughout it's history. Even in modern day Korea a percentage of the Buddhist monks trains different kinds of martial arts.
2. Do Buddhist monks live in the mountains?
Sure, of course there are temples in the cities, but most of the old temples are in the mountains where the monks could live undisturbed.
3. What's the connection between temples and hermitages?
The Korea temples are usually arranged with a large central temple ('sa' as in Bulguk-sa) with hermitages ('Ahm/Am' as in Yangmi Ahm or Wondang-am) of different sizes spread all over the mountain where a major temple is located. A hermitage can of course also be established far from a central temple. A hermitage can house from one person to many monks or nuns and the administration in the central temple takes care of the hermitages (food is brought to the hermitage, clothes washed etc).
The smaller hermitages further away from a central temple with just one or a few monks will usually have at least one layperson to cook, wash etc. for them so the monk can concentrate on his duties.
4. 'Suahm' Dosa or 'Suam' Dosa?
It does not matter, it's just different ways of writing the two Chinese characters that make up the name using western letters.
Suam Dosa and the Lee family:
GM Lee's father was stationmaster on the last stop of the Trans-Sibirian railroad. He was contracted to change broken windows in the train (the station was the last stop) and since a lot of windows broke because of the Siberian cold, it was a very good business.
This meant that GM Lee's father were well off and owned several pieces of land in the area, including the entire mountain where the small temple So Gwang Sa were located and where the monk Suam Dosa lived. The monk was famous in the area for his martial arts abilities and a lot of people wanted him to teach them, but he had always refused to accept students.
GM Lees father was a close personal friend of the monk, and together with the fact that the monk lived on GM Lee's fathers land, he was in a good position to ask the monk to accept his sons as students. So one day in 1942 he brought all five sons to the monk and asked him to teach them, the monk then choosed two of them, GM Joo Bang Lee and his older brother GM Joo Sang Lee.
So Suahm Dosa began teaching GM Joo Bang Lee and GM Joo Sang Lee at the Temple in North Korea. This was when the brothers were 4 and 5 years old and was the beginning of a father and son relationship between the brothers and the monk, which lasted for almost 30 years, from 1942 to 1969 when Suahm Dosa passed away.
The monk always said he was teaching 'the secret ancient Hwarang combat skills' which he called "Um Yang Kwon" (simply "hard and soft techniques/fist") and that he was the 57th generation to know these skills.
There were no syllabus, the brothers were the only students and simply learned from the monk from early in the morning to late at night. The material included martial art, advanced breathing and meditation techniques, as well as in sul (acupuncture and other healing skills). Suam Dosa always said that GM Lee and his brother were his only students, but there is no way of knowing if there were anyone else before them.
In 1945 World War 2 ended, and Korea gained its independence from the Japanese occupation (1910-1945). As the people who are interested in history knows, the Soviet Union occupied the northern part of the peninsula and US troops occupied the southern part. This resulted in Korea becoming divided into the northern communist territory and the southern democratic territory.
Millions of people in Korea were separated by politics, and like millions of other Koreans the Lee family together with the monk wanted to move to the south. Of course the border was heavily patrolled by the military and it was very dangerous to try to pass to the other side. So they had to sneak away, and in the winter of 1948 the Lee family had exchanged all their money into notes. The female members of the family sewed the money into the lining of their clothed and then packed a picnic basket as if they were going on a short family excursion. They had to leave everything else behind in North Korea incase they were stopped by a patrol on the way towards the border, and apart from their clothes, the money sewn into the lining of the clothes, and the food in the picnic basket they brought nothing with them.
But the entire Lee family and Suahm Dosa made it safely to the south. The Lee family settled in Seoul and Suahm Dosa moved to the Yang Mi Ahm sanctuary on Oh dae Mountain. During this period the Lee brothers trained with Suam Dosa during weekends and school vacations.
Later, during the 1950's, the Korean War broke out and the Lee family moved further south to Daegu, Korea. It was then that the Lee brothers met the Daedong Ryu Yusool founder Yong-Sul Choi. The Lee brothers took private lessons from Master Choi and received master position of this art in 1956. But the brothers continued their training under Suam Dosa until he passed away in 1969.
In 1960 GM Joo Bang Lee had finished university and wanted to open a martial arts school. But in order for Dr. Lee to teach this system to the public a syllabus and ranking system was needed. So April 17th, 1960, Dr. Lee divided all of the skills that he had learned into the Hwarang Do curriculum and opened his first school.
See the "Why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido" thread for more on this period.: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s&threadid=12011
In June 1968, after his last attempt to unify the Korean styles had failed, GM Lee explained to Suahm Dosa what had happened. And after explaining the situation, GM Lee finally received permission from Suahm Dosa to teach the Hwarang combat skills to the public with the Hwa Rang Do name. From this point he registered his martial art name with the Korean government and concentrated his efforts solely on the development of Hwa Rang Do and the Korean Hwa Rang Do Association, to the exclusion of all other martial arts. A year later in July 1969 Suahm Dosa passed away.
My comments
The story has always been the same, from the first time I heard GM Lee talk about the history (the first black belt seminar I attended (1989)), GM Lee said the same: His main teacher was the monk Suam Dosa and he also had the highest rank in Yawara.
There are many Korean martial artist to claims to have learned from a monk, but GM Joo Bang Lee was the first to make this claim.
Q: Are there any pictures of Suam Dosa?
A: No, the monk didn't like his picture taken, which is not uncommon.
Q: When did GM Lee start saying he had a monk for a teacher?
A: The oldest mention Ive seen of Hwarang Do (a Korean newspaper article from 1968) mentions Suam Dosa as GM Lees primary teacher. This is nothing new.
1. So to answer my first question "Did GM Lee and his brother train under a monk?" my answer is "yes, I am convinced GM Lee trained under Suam Dosa" and I think most people who have actually meet GM Lee agrees. There is nothing strange about a monk teaching martial arts.
We can discuss the Silla lineage, and the material he taught. But I see no reason to doubt the existence of the monk.
---
2. What is the lineage, it is really Silla martial art?
This is open for discussion and you are certainly welcome to your own opinion.
There are no Korean sources that mentions unarmed combat in connection with the Silla Hwarang. There are stories of Hwarang fighting bravely, and there are evidence of unarmed combat during this period, but the *only* connection between the Silla Hwarang organization and unarmed martial arts is through the World HRD Association.
GM Lee says he learned Silla Hwarang figting skills from his teacher, the monk Suam Dosa. If you don't believe the monk taught ancient Silla skills, there is NO connection between the Silla Hwarang and unarmed fighting. I can discuss and expand on this for a long time, but enough for now.
Q: Who were Suam Dosa's teacher, what is the lineage?
A: I don't know, I've never asked. I'm guessing GM Lee knows at least Suam Dosa's teacher. The monk did have a book but they couldn't bring it because they had to pack as if they were going on a picnic.
Q: So what is the proof that Suam Dosa taught Silla Hwarang martial art?
A: There is no proof. You can believe what you want.
Q: You mean there is no proof?
A: No there is no proof, what proof could there be?
If you wanted to make up a fake story you could do so in 30 minutes. If I wanted to cheat I would make up a list of 50 names and find a picture of an old Korean monk in a few hours. GM Lee have not done that but always kept his story consistent as described above.
Q: You believe that the monk taught techniques passed on from Silla?
A: Yes, some people believe Shaolin Kung Fu can be traced to the ancient Shaolin temple, others that a female nun created Wing Chun. Is that a problem?
Q: Is Hwarang Do the only style without a written lineage?
A: Of course not, this is not unique, Okinawa karate and many other styles also have no written lineage.
Q: So Carsten what do you believe?
A: What are the possibilities (apart from the techniques being passed on since the Silla Dynasty):
- Some have speculated that GM Lee and his brother only learned meditation and breathing exercises from the monk. This I find totally ridiculous, there is no evidence for this, and no reason other than if you want to argue that GM Lee had no MA background whatsoever before Yawara.
- Is it possible that Suam Dosa taught some form of Buddhist MA in 1945 rather than ancient native Korean skills?
Certainly. If you don't want to believe in the Silla connection it is certainly possible that it was some type of newer Buddhist 'style'. If this is your belief you'll have to guess at what style it is, and how old it is.
- Is it possible that there were Chinese influence in Suam Dosa's 'style'?
Sure, North Korea, Manchuria, China have close ties and there are millions of Koreans living in China. If this is your belief you can compare with various Chinese styles for similarities as Patrick McCarthy did with Okinawa Karate.
But all this are theories and you can believe what you want.
I choose to believe that it *was* Silla martial art passed on in the temples but if you choose to believe it was a newer Chinese or Buddhist martial art, it's fine with me. If someone are interested in pursuing the Chinese or Buddhist connection, I'm certainly with you all the way.
I am however 100% convinced that GM Lee believes that Suam Dosa taught Silla MA as the monk said.
---
3. Did the story change/what does GM Lee actually say?
GM Lee has never called himself 59th generation Dojoo-Nim. He has ALWAYS said that the techniques has been passed down through 58 generations. But GM Lee is the founder, and the first dojoo-nim of Hwarang Do.
Q: Who were the 58. generation Hwarang Do Dojoo-nim?
A: That's not how it works. GM Lee is the first generation Doju-Nim, it was GM Lee who put the syllabus together. The person who follows GM Lee will be the second generation Hwarang Do Dojoo-nim. The monk Suam Dosa was the 58. generation to teach the hard and soft skills of the Silla Hwarang (Um Yang kwon/musul).
Q: If GM Lee teaches Um-Yang Kwon who else of this lineage of tradition also practices Um-Yang Kwon? If there have been 57 inheritors there should be quite a range of practitioners, yes? Who else practices this art?
A: The two only students were GM Joo Bang Lee and his older brother GM Joo Sang Lee. The techniques had been passed down from monk to monk through generations, and Suam Dosa said he was the only one who learned the techniques from his master. Is it possible there are more people who knows the techniques? Your guess is as good as mine.
Q: What is Hwarang Do - Um Yang Musul or Hwarang Do?
A: Hwarang Do is Hwarang Do. The style is GM Lee's combination of Um Yang Musul, Yawara and other experiences.
Q: Do we only have stories told by the World Hwa Rang Do Association?
A: The only connection between the Silla Hwarang organization and unarmed martial arts is through the World HRD Association.
Is the history important I think so, but then Im interested in history.
I didnt start training because of the history though, and I wouldnt be interested if Hwarang Do was fighting on horseback in armor with spears or whatever. I started training Hwarang Do because I thought the forms are beautiful and the techniques effective.
The test if Hwarang Do is a good or a bad martial art is on the mat (or wherever you might need it) and all the other things we get from the training.
My answers:
I listed three common questions and my answers are:
1. I am convinced GM Lee trained under Suam Dosa and I think most people who have meet GM Lee agrees that he did.
2. I am even more convinced that GM Lee believes that the monk taught ancient Korean techniques. What ever you choose to believe is up to you. But I'm certainly up for an investigation if anyone are trying to track down any Chinese/Buddhist or whatever links.
3. No the story did not change. GM Lee says he founded Hwarang Do based on techniques passed on since Silla that he learned from the monk. GM Lee is the founder and the first Dojoo-Nim, but the 58.generation to learn the skills. See 2) for my opinion.
I'm again writing this quickly so I'm sure there's errors. A couple of paragraphs are taken from hwarangdo.com to save time, otherwise this is my text:
It seems most questions/attacks centers around three main questions:
1. Did GM Lee and his brother train under a monk?
2. What is the lineage, it is really Silla martial art?
3. Did the story change/what does GM Lee actually say?
Please let me know if there are other main issues!
Introduction:
1. Buddhist monks really don't train martial art, do they?
No, not all of them, but some certainly do. This is known in at least China, Japan and Korea. In Korea there are long traditions for monks training martial arts throughout it's history. Even in modern day Korea a percentage of the Buddhist monks trains different kinds of martial arts.
2. Do Buddhist monks live in the mountains?
Sure, of course there are temples in the cities, but most of the old temples are in the mountains where the monks could live undisturbed.
3. What's the connection between temples and hermitages?
The Korea temples are usually arranged with a large central temple ('sa' as in Bulguk-sa) with hermitages ('Ahm/Am' as in Yangmi Ahm or Wondang-am) of different sizes spread all over the mountain where a major temple is located. A hermitage can of course also be established far from a central temple. A hermitage can house from one person to many monks or nuns and the administration in the central temple takes care of the hermitages (food is brought to the hermitage, clothes washed etc).
The smaller hermitages further away from a central temple with just one or a few monks will usually have at least one layperson to cook, wash etc. for them so the monk can concentrate on his duties.
4. 'Suahm' Dosa or 'Suam' Dosa?
It does not matter, it's just different ways of writing the two Chinese characters that make up the name using western letters.
Suam Dosa and the Lee family:
GM Lee's father was stationmaster on the last stop of the Trans-Sibirian railroad. He was contracted to change broken windows in the train (the station was the last stop) and since a lot of windows broke because of the Siberian cold, it was a very good business.
This meant that GM Lee's father were well off and owned several pieces of land in the area, including the entire mountain where the small temple So Gwang Sa were located and where the monk Suam Dosa lived. The monk was famous in the area for his martial arts abilities and a lot of people wanted him to teach them, but he had always refused to accept students.
GM Lees father was a close personal friend of the monk, and together with the fact that the monk lived on GM Lee's fathers land, he was in a good position to ask the monk to accept his sons as students. So one day in 1942 he brought all five sons to the monk and asked him to teach them, the monk then choosed two of them, GM Joo Bang Lee and his older brother GM Joo Sang Lee.
So Suahm Dosa began teaching GM Joo Bang Lee and GM Joo Sang Lee at the Temple in North Korea. This was when the brothers were 4 and 5 years old and was the beginning of a father and son relationship between the brothers and the monk, which lasted for almost 30 years, from 1942 to 1969 when Suahm Dosa passed away.
The monk always said he was teaching 'the secret ancient Hwarang combat skills' which he called "Um Yang Kwon" (simply "hard and soft techniques/fist") and that he was the 57th generation to know these skills.
There were no syllabus, the brothers were the only students and simply learned from the monk from early in the morning to late at night. The material included martial art, advanced breathing and meditation techniques, as well as in sul (acupuncture and other healing skills). Suam Dosa always said that GM Lee and his brother were his only students, but there is no way of knowing if there were anyone else before them.
In 1945 World War 2 ended, and Korea gained its independence from the Japanese occupation (1910-1945). As the people who are interested in history knows, the Soviet Union occupied the northern part of the peninsula and US troops occupied the southern part. This resulted in Korea becoming divided into the northern communist territory and the southern democratic territory.
Millions of people in Korea were separated by politics, and like millions of other Koreans the Lee family together with the monk wanted to move to the south. Of course the border was heavily patrolled by the military and it was very dangerous to try to pass to the other side. So they had to sneak away, and in the winter of 1948 the Lee family had exchanged all their money into notes. The female members of the family sewed the money into the lining of their clothed and then packed a picnic basket as if they were going on a short family excursion. They had to leave everything else behind in North Korea incase they were stopped by a patrol on the way towards the border, and apart from their clothes, the money sewn into the lining of the clothes, and the food in the picnic basket they brought nothing with them.
But the entire Lee family and Suahm Dosa made it safely to the south. The Lee family settled in Seoul and Suahm Dosa moved to the Yang Mi Ahm sanctuary on Oh dae Mountain. During this period the Lee brothers trained with Suam Dosa during weekends and school vacations.
Later, during the 1950's, the Korean War broke out and the Lee family moved further south to Daegu, Korea. It was then that the Lee brothers met the Daedong Ryu Yusool founder Yong-Sul Choi. The Lee brothers took private lessons from Master Choi and received master position of this art in 1956. But the brothers continued their training under Suam Dosa until he passed away in 1969.
In 1960 GM Joo Bang Lee had finished university and wanted to open a martial arts school. But in order for Dr. Lee to teach this system to the public a syllabus and ranking system was needed. So April 17th, 1960, Dr. Lee divided all of the skills that he had learned into the Hwarang Do curriculum and opened his first school.
See the "Why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido" thread for more on this period.: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s&threadid=12011
In June 1968, after his last attempt to unify the Korean styles had failed, GM Lee explained to Suahm Dosa what had happened. And after explaining the situation, GM Lee finally received permission from Suahm Dosa to teach the Hwarang combat skills to the public with the Hwa Rang Do name. From this point he registered his martial art name with the Korean government and concentrated his efforts solely on the development of Hwa Rang Do and the Korean Hwa Rang Do Association, to the exclusion of all other martial arts. A year later in July 1969 Suahm Dosa passed away.
My comments
The story has always been the same, from the first time I heard GM Lee talk about the history (the first black belt seminar I attended (1989)), GM Lee said the same: His main teacher was the monk Suam Dosa and he also had the highest rank in Yawara.
There are many Korean martial artist to claims to have learned from a monk, but GM Joo Bang Lee was the first to make this claim.
Q: Are there any pictures of Suam Dosa?
A: No, the monk didn't like his picture taken, which is not uncommon.
Q: When did GM Lee start saying he had a monk for a teacher?
A: The oldest mention Ive seen of Hwarang Do (a Korean newspaper article from 1968) mentions Suam Dosa as GM Lees primary teacher. This is nothing new.
1. So to answer my first question "Did GM Lee and his brother train under a monk?" my answer is "yes, I am convinced GM Lee trained under Suam Dosa" and I think most people who have actually meet GM Lee agrees. There is nothing strange about a monk teaching martial arts.
We can discuss the Silla lineage, and the material he taught. But I see no reason to doubt the existence of the monk.
---
2. What is the lineage, it is really Silla martial art?
This is open for discussion and you are certainly welcome to your own opinion.
There are no Korean sources that mentions unarmed combat in connection with the Silla Hwarang. There are stories of Hwarang fighting bravely, and there are evidence of unarmed combat during this period, but the *only* connection between the Silla Hwarang organization and unarmed martial arts is through the World HRD Association.
GM Lee says he learned Silla Hwarang figting skills from his teacher, the monk Suam Dosa. If you don't believe the monk taught ancient Silla skills, there is NO connection between the Silla Hwarang and unarmed fighting. I can discuss and expand on this for a long time, but enough for now.
Q: Who were Suam Dosa's teacher, what is the lineage?
A: I don't know, I've never asked. I'm guessing GM Lee knows at least Suam Dosa's teacher. The monk did have a book but they couldn't bring it because they had to pack as if they were going on a picnic.
Q: So what is the proof that Suam Dosa taught Silla Hwarang martial art?
A: There is no proof. You can believe what you want.
Q: You mean there is no proof?
A: No there is no proof, what proof could there be?
If you wanted to make up a fake story you could do so in 30 minutes. If I wanted to cheat I would make up a list of 50 names and find a picture of an old Korean monk in a few hours. GM Lee have not done that but always kept his story consistent as described above.
Q: You believe that the monk taught techniques passed on from Silla?
A: Yes, some people believe Shaolin Kung Fu can be traced to the ancient Shaolin temple, others that a female nun created Wing Chun. Is that a problem?
Q: Is Hwarang Do the only style without a written lineage?
A: Of course not, this is not unique, Okinawa karate and many other styles also have no written lineage.
Q: So Carsten what do you believe?
A: What are the possibilities (apart from the techniques being passed on since the Silla Dynasty):
- Some have speculated that GM Lee and his brother only learned meditation and breathing exercises from the monk. This I find totally ridiculous, there is no evidence for this, and no reason other than if you want to argue that GM Lee had no MA background whatsoever before Yawara.
- Is it possible that Suam Dosa taught some form of Buddhist MA in 1945 rather than ancient native Korean skills?
Certainly. If you don't want to believe in the Silla connection it is certainly possible that it was some type of newer Buddhist 'style'. If this is your belief you'll have to guess at what style it is, and how old it is.
- Is it possible that there were Chinese influence in Suam Dosa's 'style'?
Sure, North Korea, Manchuria, China have close ties and there are millions of Koreans living in China. If this is your belief you can compare with various Chinese styles for similarities as Patrick McCarthy did with Okinawa Karate.
But all this are theories and you can believe what you want.
I choose to believe that it *was* Silla martial art passed on in the temples but if you choose to believe it was a newer Chinese or Buddhist martial art, it's fine with me. If someone are interested in pursuing the Chinese or Buddhist connection, I'm certainly with you all the way.
I am however 100% convinced that GM Lee believes that Suam Dosa taught Silla MA as the monk said.
---
3. Did the story change/what does GM Lee actually say?
GM Lee has never called himself 59th generation Dojoo-Nim. He has ALWAYS said that the techniques has been passed down through 58 generations. But GM Lee is the founder, and the first dojoo-nim of Hwarang Do.
Q: Who were the 58. generation Hwarang Do Dojoo-nim?
A: That's not how it works. GM Lee is the first generation Doju-Nim, it was GM Lee who put the syllabus together. The person who follows GM Lee will be the second generation Hwarang Do Dojoo-nim. The monk Suam Dosa was the 58. generation to teach the hard and soft skills of the Silla Hwarang (Um Yang kwon/musul).
Q: If GM Lee teaches Um-Yang Kwon who else of this lineage of tradition also practices Um-Yang Kwon? If there have been 57 inheritors there should be quite a range of practitioners, yes? Who else practices this art?
A: The two only students were GM Joo Bang Lee and his older brother GM Joo Sang Lee. The techniques had been passed down from monk to monk through generations, and Suam Dosa said he was the only one who learned the techniques from his master. Is it possible there are more people who knows the techniques? Your guess is as good as mine.
Q: What is Hwarang Do - Um Yang Musul or Hwarang Do?
A: Hwarang Do is Hwarang Do. The style is GM Lee's combination of Um Yang Musul, Yawara and other experiences.
Q: Do we only have stories told by the World Hwa Rang Do Association?
A: The only connection between the Silla Hwarang organization and unarmed martial arts is through the World HRD Association.
Is the history important I think so, but then Im interested in history.
I didnt start training because of the history though, and I wouldnt be interested if Hwarang Do was fighting on horseback in armor with spears or whatever. I started training Hwarang Do because I thought the forms are beautiful and the techniques effective.
The test if Hwarang Do is a good or a bad martial art is on the mat (or wherever you might need it) and all the other things we get from the training.
My answers:
I listed three common questions and my answers are:
1. I am convinced GM Lee trained under Suam Dosa and I think most people who have meet GM Lee agrees that he did.
2. I am even more convinced that GM Lee believes that the monk taught ancient Korean techniques. What ever you choose to believe is up to you. But I'm certainly up for an investigation if anyone are trying to track down any Chinese/Buddhist or whatever links.
3. No the story did not change. GM Lee says he founded Hwarang Do based on techniques passed on since Silla that he learned from the monk. GM Lee is the founder and the first Dojoo-Nim, but the 58.generation to learn the skills. See 2) for my opinion.
