The K is on the Way

[Makalakumu]

It seems to me that with TKD in the Olympics, we already have a perfect platform that could be expanded to allow other arts to compete. What if the rules were changed to allow this? For example, what if punching to the head and/or foot sweeps were allowed?

 

[Tez3]

It seems to me that with TKD in the Olympics, we already have a perfect platform that could be expanded to allow other arts to compete. What if the rules were changed to allow this? For example, what if punching to the head and/or foot sweeps were allowed?

That's a thought. I tend to think though it would be kick boxing but that's not a bad thing. Many people like kick boxing and it does have roots in karate, TKD and TSD. could be good fun.

 

[Manny]

Well I think that maybe and just maybe olimpics could unify striking martial arts like TKD,Karate,Kung Fu,etc. and under just one humbrela create one olimpic sport with one rule set that allow for example a tkd guy compete agains a karate guy or kung fu guy. The same can be aplied to Judo/Jujitsu and in this manner enrich the grapling arts.

Manny

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well I think that maybe and just maybe olimpics could unify striking martial arts like TKD,Karate,Kung Fu,etc. and under just one humbrela create one olimpic sport with one rule set that allow for example a tkd guy compete agains a karate guy or kung fu guy. The same can be aplied to Judo/Jujitsu and in this manner enrich the grapling arts.

Manny

I would agree with this, but it's too likely that it would turn into MMA again, since they would have to ban all the 'dirtier' things those arts practice for spectators and for safety reasons. Also would be really tough to have a set ruleset for it. How many points is a punch awarded versus a kick? If its 1 point vs 2 points, gives styles like TKD the advantage, if its 1vs1, its unfair because a solid kick is often harder to land, so it will give styles like TKD a disadvantage.

EDIT: misread manny's post and didnt see striking and grappling arts would be separate. Same statement, but I think the striking would turn into kickboxing instead of MMA, which is good, just not showing the diversity of the arts. However, I think it could work really well with grappling arts. I for one would love to see it.

 

[Gorilla]

Agree...guess I just needed a little more clarification....definitely not a kiddie art or sport...good for kids but much more than that!

Wrong, I don't want everyone to do karate as I used to, I want people to understand that if they go to a couple of karate classes this isn't necessararily how karate is everywhere else. I'm arguing specifically against one person who assumes karate is a childrens 'sport' and that it needs to be in the Olympics to get adults in it. Now the obvious thing is, if there's going to be karate in the Olympics there already are plenty of adults in karate! You are saying what I'm saying that karate is already popular and isn't marginalised so while karate in the Olympics might be good for some, we don't need it in the Olympics because it's a dying style.
If karate is going into the Olympics it's because it's already a well known, popular sport practised by a good many adults. I really don't like seeing karate being put about as some sort of inferior kiddie pastime.

 

[Tez3]

Agree...guess I just needed a little more clarification....definitely not a kiddie art or sport...good for kids but much more than that!

If you go back and read SPX's post you will read his opinion, based on the couple of places he's visited, of karate, ie for women and kids etc. Also how he feels karate needs to be made popular so adults will train in it. I feel he has a totally skwed idea of karate and it's this I'm trying to get around. He's not being nasty or anything like that but his idea of karate needs to be changed I'm afraid.

 

[SPX]

Tez3...I get your point...you would like everyone to do Karate the way that you do it...never going to happen...you will be able to continue implement Karate in your world the way that you would like it...
Karate in the Olympics won't stop that....WKF Karate is huge....it is already being done on a grand scale...they filled a stadium in France for the World Championships...

Did they really fill the stadium? I saw some clips of the prelims and there were a LOT of empty seats. Then again, that was just the prelims.

the Olympics will not change anything for those who would like to do a more aggressive style of karate...we do a much more aggressive full contact style in the DoJo...we prefer that way also...and our Karate is not mellow...not as much cardio but never mellow!

Full contact? What's style do you practice?

As for mellow, I was mostly referring to conditioning and only in reference to what I've seen--and experienced--at some Olympic TKD schools. There's one Olympic-based dojang that I've dropped in on a few times and the cardio training there is unlike anything I've experienced in any other MA class. It's basically a class that never stops moving. You have about 30 to 45 minutes of straight conditioning at the beginning--running, push ups, jumping rope, duck walking, etc--and then move into kicking drills where, again, it's just constant motion. Then at the end, it's another 20 minutes of straight conditioning exercises.

On Saturdays during the summer he takes you out to a high school and makes you run laps around the track . . . and then an hour of sparring.

I think that if Olympic Karate becomes a thing, then we'll see a greater focus on cardio and strength training, just like you see in other sports.

 

[SPX]

It seems to me that with TKD in the Olympics, we already have a perfect platform that could be expanded to allow other arts to compete. What if the rules were changed to allow this? For example, what if punching to the head and/or foot sweeps were allowed?

That would be sweet. It basically sounds like ITF sparring rules + sweeps.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khtx5elzH4o

Will the Olympics allow no headguards, shinpads and gloves?

 

[SPX]

Karate classes are mellow? Really? perhaps the couple you've been to are but really you are judging karate by your experiences only, karate really isn't what you think it is!

I would argue that karate is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And there are a lot of different styles and a lot of different instructors who run their classes a lot of different ways. There is no one single thing that is "karate."

What I said is, "A lot of karate classes are mellow." And that is true. A lot are.

I'm actually shooting a little 3ish minute documentary for a class I'm taking in school about a local Shotokan school. With the exception of the Friday night competition/fighting class, I think their classes are indeed pretty mellow. And I think that a lot of other karate classes are run the same way.

I'll upload the video when I get done with it. Maybe that will help clarify things.

I can't see the IOC allowing full contact no gloves or shin pads kumite in the Olympics and if it's not that then it's a poor imitation of karate.

What about all the Shotokan schools who have, as a matter of tradition, utilized only no-contact or light-contact forms of sparring for decades?

 

[Manny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khtx5elzH4o

Will the Olympics allow no headguards, shinpads and gloves?

I higly rfespect the people who do and COMPETE in Kyokusin, this style of karate is very rough and I believe the IOC will not allow this kind of heavy contact without the use of protective gear, one thing is wining and other thing is to preserve the integrity of the competitor, in competition one's gola is to overcome the other guy not to beat him to death.

Manny

 

[Gorilla]

SPX....we do Shotokan...we do full contact to the body...controlled to the head with the punching...

It has been a problem in WKF/PKF/NKF Karate for us as we get penalized for body kicks for excessive contact...that is how my son lost his third fight a the Pan Ams he knocked the guy down with the back kick...medic had to be called..instead of getting two points he got a penalty and it cost him the match..not complaining part of the game...

 

[Gorilla]

Love Kyokusin....but it is not going to the Olympics...not up for consideration...

 

[SPX]

SPX....we do Shotokan...we do full contact to the body...controlled to the head with the punching...

It has been a problem in WKF/PKF/NKF Karate for us as we get penalized for body kicks for excessive contact...that is how my son lost his third fight a the Pan Ams he knocked the guy down with the back kick...medic had to be called..instead of getting two points he got a penalty and it cost him the match..not complaining part of the game...

I'm sure you would agree that full contact sparring (even just to the body) is unusual for a Shoto school.

If that's how you guys roll, then that sounds pretty good. Though personally, I'm not overly interested in training that way. More of medium contact kind of guy.

"Bruises not breaks" is my motto.

 

[Gorilla]

SPX...I have been affiliated with highly motivated Shotokan Schools the sparring is very rough and remember we train at hard core sports schools in both TKD and Shotokan...

We train with Olympians, National Team coaches and World Ranked fighters on a regular basis!

There are allot of hard core school if you know what you are looking for!

To much generalization goes on on the net!

 

[SPX]

I'm not saying they don't exist . . . I'm saying they are the exception.

I see you're also from the US. And I assume you would agree that if you polled all karate schools around the country that teach Shotokan that more than 50% limit their contact level
fairly strictly when sparring.

Funakoshi himself advocated it.

Interestingly enough, I just ran across this thread where the same thing was discussed. Apparently I commented in it, though I'm not sure I remember doing so.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...hotokan-folks-adding-full-contact-to-Shotokan

 

[SPX]

Also, we're fairly close to each other, so if you could point me toward one of these hard core schools in the Salt Lake City area I would be appreciative.

 

[Gorilla]

Don't know of any in Salt Lake City...but if you are in Las Vegas PM me and you can come buy and train! With the Tkd team it is open...the Karate team is not!


When I think about it allot is probably the wrong word. So I will be more accurate...you can find hard core trainig... Most of the schools only have elements of it...mostly in the form of competion teams...I assumed that you knew how it worked...

 

[SPX]

Well that's kind of been what I've been trying to get at this whole time. That yes, there are schools like that out there, but they are not really the norm when you look at the total karate landscape across the country.

Most of the karate schools around here are not competition focused. That's what I've been looking for--a karate school with a strong competitive element--but the only ones I have found pretty much only have kids that actually want to compete.

There is a school a little to the north that is VERY competitive, but it's like a different kind of competition. They are really into the NASKA/NBL kind of thing. Go watch a class and you'll see a bunch of kids doing modified kata and spinning glow-in-the-dark bo staffs around.

There is one guy here locally who runs a JKA dojo and he does train students to compete, but again, he doesn't have many adult students and has told me that those he does have aren't very interested in fighting or competition.

There is a Shotokan dojo--the same dojo that I've mentioned a few times already--that has one guy who is super competitive and he teaches a class one day a week that is focused on fighting and competition. But every other night, it's a much more relaxed, no-contact-kumite, low-impact kind of thing. It's really sort of the opposite situation than with a lot of the other dojos. Instead of being composed of a bunch of kids, it's mostly composed of older guys whose fighting days are in the past. I will be going to the "fighting" class tomorrow, though. The impression I've gotten is that if the instructor who teaches that class was the head instructor and all their classes were that way, then it would be exactly what I'm looking for. But that unfortunately is not the situation.

Then there's the wado-ryu dojo. I spent two months there before hurting my should and dropping out to let that rehab. That took about six months. Those guys are pretty intense in their attitude and the sparring, while not full contact, can get a little rough for sure. But they are not really competition focused. They used to be . . . but not anymore. There are shades of the same situation that you find at the Shotokan dojo, that is, old lions that are kind of toning it down as they age. I do think those guys are pretty bad ***, though. I may end up going back.

Or, if I can make sure no one will get upset about it, train primarily at the wado school, but make an arrangement to drop in on the competition class on Fridays with the Shotokan guys.

We'll see. It sucks not being able to just find a place that does exactly what I want, though.

 

[Tez3]

As Gorilla said too much generalisation, Shotokan is known as a 'hard' style. The videos I linked to aren't particularly hard just normal full contact on par with Muay Thai and kickboxing both very popular over here. No one is trying to destroy anyone, it's far from rough thats brawling, the full contact kumite is very controlled. Boxing and MMA are much more hardcore. There's plenty of places doing full contact, there's plenty of places who don't. What there is out there is choice.