The Itf

[Disco]

This is directed primarily for the ITF members. What do you feel is the future of the ITF now that there seems to be major infighting.
There are 3 seperate factions, to date, claiming control. Another high ranking dan has openly quit and renounced any ties to the ITF.

Guys, what in the world is going on? Is this going to be the downfall of the ITF as we know it? Is there the possibility that all can come to an agreement and solidify or has greed and politics totally taken over?
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Disco
This is directed primarily for the ITF members. What do you feel is the future of the ITF now that there seems to be major infighting.
There are 3 seperate factions, to date, claiming control. Another high ranking dan has openly quit and renounced any ties to the ITF.

Guys, what in the world is going on? Is this going to be the downfall of the ITF as we know it? Is there the possibility that all can come to an agreement and solidify or has greed and politics totally taken over?
:asian:

If that high ranking dan was a reference to Seref, he is not well respected in the ITF. If anything, disrespected is more accurate.

Master Choi's ITF will be the dominant ITF. ITF/NK will proceed on to be the political tool of Pyongyang (and damn those traitors who collude to serve the interest of a barbaric regime). McClelland's ITF will wither and die an agonizing death. Seref's ITF is on death watch already. He is looking for anyone who wants to ally with him. Words are he would make you the head of your state's org, if you care to join his org.

 

[Disco]

Yeah, he was the one I referenced. On his organizations web site he posted an open letter which stated that both he and the USTF(?), his organization were effective immediately tendering their resignation to/with the ITF. Should be interesting to see what happens. So one of the splinter ITF factions is aligning itself with North Korea? Can't figure why they would do that. You would think that they would understand that the rest of us would look at them with a jaundiced eye. I guess politics is not my strong suit. Thanks for the info Ken.
:asian:

 

[Disco]

The silence is deafening.

 

[MountainSage]

Disco,
Maybe this is the opening the folk, like the TKDers on this forum, is looking for. A future place for a US TKD organization not based on sport, but martial art to call home. What has been missing is a high ranking individual to be in control. Think of the possiblities, being taught a true martial art without the foreign political influence. I'm WTF, but would be willing to learn both WTF and ITF forms and techniques. Sounds like he need followers; let's give him followers at a price.


Mountian Sage

 

[Disco]

Interesting premise. Would be nice to see. No sport interests just real application. Don't really know if it would get off the ground without the sport aspect, but it would be nice for the non sport people to have a venue.

I'm assuming when you referenced a head of the organization, you were refering to Mr. Seriff (sp?). If you were, the comment that Ken made in regards to him offers up some questions. Mabey Ken could elaborate?

Thanks guys for the feedback.:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

You are correct disco, keep Shereff as the "figurehead" and create a council around him set-up similar to our own government. That way there would not be a dictatorship, rather a form of democracy. It is a very unasian way of doing things, but heck we are in the US of A. The Koreans would piss and moan for a while, but there would be little they could do, if your not in TKD for sport,because they Kikkiwon only has power over sport TKD not martial art TKD. Beside less than 1 percent of TKDers compete in sport contest and fewer yet compete internationally. I believe you give the sport application far more credit than it deserves. The sport has been hyped up to a point that most people believe that its the only part of TKD that is important. Granted, no one is going to get rich because the sport is not the main drive.

Mountain Sage

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by MountainSage
You are correct disco, keep Shereff as the "figurehead" and create a council around him set-up similar to our own government. That way there would not be a dictatorship, rather a form of democracy. It is a very unasian way of doing things, but heck we are in the US of A. The Koreans would piss and moan for a while, but there would be little they could do, if your not in TKD for sport,because they Kikkiwon only has power over sport TKD not martial art TKD. Beside less than 1 percent of TKDers compete in sport contest and fewer yet compete internationally. I believe you give the sport application far more credit than it deserves. The sport has been hyped up to a point that most people believe that its the only part of TKD that is important. Granted, no one is going to get rich because the sport is not the main drive.

Mountain Sage

No, you don't want that either. It was reported that he was way over charging people, State/Regional Directors. Under him, it was a Dictatorship. With him, it's either his way, or the highway. It helped alot, if you were in the "Colorado Circle" of Instructors.That's why many talented high ranking BB left, and why you have at least 7 INO in the U.S. under Master Choi's ITF within Canada. It seems that he just got too big, and he himself believed it. He should know, no one lives forever.:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

RC, I would wonder if Mr. Sheref, if his organization is in as bad of shape as believed, would be much more reseptive than if the organization was solid. If the choice is live or die as an organization it seems an individual that is defined by his position and power would go to some extreme to save himself. As your post might imply, he might be a go down with the ship type of person rather than being accepting a lifepreserver. He would have to agree to a system of check and balance before going forward. I believe that this type of system, similar to our government, would prevent or at least slow down the possibility of a dictatorship.

Mountain Sage

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by MountainSage
RC, I would wonder if Mr. Sheref, if his organization is in as bad of shape as believed, would be much more reseptive than if the organization was solid. If the choice is live or die as an organization it seems an individual that is defined by his position and power would go to some extreme to save himself. As your post might imply, he might be a go down with the ship type of person rather than being accepting a lifepreserver. He would have to agree to a system of check and balance before going forward. I believe that this type of system, similar to our government, would prevent or at least slow down the possibility of a dictatorship.

Mountain Sage

I agree with you. Based on his history, and how much work was put into it to make it a strong organization, you'd think it would be better. If I were him, I'd hate to see something fall after working so hard to build it up. From what I know of as a member, it was the top U.S. group when it came to building up the Generals TKD as it spread accross the country. It's now fragmented in the U.S., but the Generals dream lives on within it's members.:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

RC,
You touched on another situation that might cause some conflict. The following of the "General". A ITF person has loyality to Choi, but a WTF person wouldn't and may even dislike the man. So, both side would have to find common ground or the same splinter problem will occur. I personally wouldn't have a problem with ITF teaching, but I've always had a problem with, for lack of a better term, "blind loyality". I have no loyality to WTF, but to my training that happens to be WTF based by chance. People are failable, but train with years of history to back it up tends to be tried and true in the long run.

Mountain Sage

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by MountainSage
RC,
You touched on another situation that might cause some conflict. The following of the "General". A ITF person has loyality to Choi, but a WTF person wouldn't and may even dislike the man. So, both side would have to find common ground or the same splinter problem will occur. I personally wouldn't have a problem with ITF teaching, but I've always had a problem with, for lack of a better term, "blind loyality". I have no loyality to WTF, but to my training that happens to be WTF based by chance. People are failable, but train with years of history to back it up tends to be tried and true in the long run.

Mountain Sage

Gee, this is getting to be good!

You know, I was with another smaller regional TKD group that did ITF forms, and some of it's curriculum, but it was like, outdated?

I'm stuck now, in that I still want to do ITF forms, but the ITF as a whole, I don't know about. When I look at the technical expertise they have, I can find no other group to beat it.

I feel like if I don't stay ITF, I'm not following correctly because if one does their forms, then you must be ITF. So set me straight, can one do the forms, w/o being ITF? I know others do, like I said before, but then, are we only copying someones elses work with no real roots?

Am enjoying this dialogue with you!

 

[Andi]

So set me straight, can one do the forms, w/o being ITF? I know others do, like I said before, but then, are we only copying someones elses work with no real roots?

I do. I'm not ITF. But I study the ITF curriculum. How important are the roots? At first glance it would seem not very just in terms of my own training. But maybe when it comes to interaction with the outside world.........

Any idea what proportion of ITF style clubs belong to the ITF? Obviously this may vary wildly by region.

 

[MountainSage]

RC,
I got the TKD book by Marc Tedeschi, just published, and it list and have photos of all the form WTF and ITF forms and the funny thing is that they are not that different. A white belt in either system does about the same form, much like most of the ranks are similar. I personal think the ITF forms offer more variety in skill in each form. I don't work on ITF forms because my brain can only take so much memorization. I am debating on adding some of ITF form I think look interesting or have a skill that looks like an advantage to a person of my size. You can be any style you like, but to get advanced you need to have the forms of that particular style. Please don't feel I'm bashing Choi; I'd state basically the same blind faith statement to some of the kenpo people also, oops, your kenpo also aren't you:shrug: .

Mountain Sage

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by MountainSage
RC,
I got the TKD book by Marc Tedeschi, just published, and it list and have photos of all the form WTF and ITF forms and the funny thing is that they are not that different. A white belt in either system does about the same form, much like most of the ranks are similar. I personal think the ITF forms offer more variety in skill in each form. I don't work on ITF forms because my brain can only take so much memorization. I am debating on adding some of ITF form I think look interesting or have a skill that looks like an advantage to a person of my size. You can be any style you like, but to get advanced you need to have the forms of that particular style. Please don't feel I'm bashing Choi; I'd state basically the same blind faith statement to some of the kenpo people also, oops, your kenpo also aren't you:shrug: .

Mountain Sage

No, I think your posts are ok, I don't see anything bad here. I think we're having a great discussion.:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Andi
I do. I'm not ITF. But I study the ITF curriculum. How important are the roots? At first glance it would seem not very just in terms of my own training. But maybe when it comes to interaction with the outside world.........

Any idea what proportion of ITF style clubs belong to the ITF? Obviously this may vary wildly by region.

Well, I know that the AFTI-ITF group that I'm a member of has locations in 17 states, and in two other countries. They say they're one of the bigger ones.:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Disco
Yeah, he was the one I referenced. On his organizations web site he posted an open letter which stated that both he and the USTF(?), his organization were effective immediately tendering their resignation to/with the ITF. Should be interesting to see what happens. So one of the splinter ITF factions is aligning itself with North Korea? Can't figure why they would do that. You would think that they would understand that the rest of us would look at them with a jaundiced eye. I guess politics is not my strong suit. Thanks for the info Ken.
:asian:

ITF/NK is controlled by a NK official. Gen Choi built the original ITF using NK money. AS a result, ITF was heavily infiltrated by NK agents. When alive, Gen Choi was able to keep them in check. Gen Choi's son, Master Choi, refused to be NK's puppet. He splited (or pushed) to form his ITF federation. After Gen Choi's death, a NK official was appointed to the presidensy of the original ITF (hence ITF/NK). Some of Gen Choi's original cohorts went with the ITF/NK, some splitted to form their own ITF. Those chose to go with Master Choi, have done so a year early.

In the US, KATU chose to go with ITF/NK. Seref went independent. The rest, most were already allied with ITF/Master Choi. Seref is yesterday's news. There's no future to have him as head of anything.

Master Choi's ITF will prosper as the legitimate and true heir to Gen Choi's ITF, provided that he does not screw it up.....sigh@

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by KennethKu
ITF/NK is controlled by a NK official. Gen Choi built the original ITF using NK money. AS a result, ITF was heavily infiltrated by NK agents. When alive, Gen Choi was able to keep them in check. Gen Choi's son, Master Choi, refused to be NK's puppet. He splited (or pushed) to form his ITF federation. After Gen Choi's death, a NK official was appointed to the presidensy of the original ITF (hence ITF/NK). Some of Gen Choi's original cohorts went with the ITF/NK, some splitted to form their own ITF. Those chose to go with Master Choi, have done so a year early.

In the US, KATU chose to go with ITF/NK. Seref went independent. The rest, most were already allied with ITF/Master Choi. Seref is yesterday's news. There's no future to have him as head of anything.

Master Choi's ITF will prosper as the legitimate and true heir to Gen Choi's ITF, provided that he does not screw it up.....sigh@

Well said. I think Master Choi will learn from these expereinces and carry the ITF far.