The folly of weapons control

[Deaf Smith]

Below is a Brit's take on the incresing crime in Britian. From shootings to stabbings to muggins to robberies they are all going up and in the not to distant future they will suppass the US in all categories (car thefts are already 6 times those of the U.S. and home breakings are more numerious to.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/16/ukcrime.ukguns

. . . it seems increasingly clear that what we have avoided with firearms is now being delivered through another weapon and, terrifying, one which is tougher to control.

There have been 100 stabbing in London in the first five months of this year - including, in the past six days, the Oxford Street murder of Steven Bigby, 22, and the baker’s shop killing of 16-year-old Jimmy Mizen, who now joins Stephen Lawrence and Damilola Taylor among the symbolic martyrs of a despairing era of street-life.

Our biggest mistake was to assume guns are the greatest threat to life. Knives are easier to find - they are present in every kitchen - and simpler to use. It is impossible to improvise a gun from stuff found in the gutter or on a supermarket shelf, but a bottle can become a dagger with one smash.

Gun control is difficult; knife control is all but impossible.

 

[Hawke]

Many systems have a way to deal with a knife.

A common belief in knife work: If you're in a knife fight prepare to get cut.

Whether you're in a knife or gun fight when you get a chance to run....run.

According to Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny and Gabe Suarez:

You have a greater chance to survive from a gun than a knife.

The knife wound is considered worse than a gun shot.

There quite a bit of gun control myths flying around. I put a few in the Gun section forum here.

 

[Tez3]

Bear in mind that the Guardian is a political newspaper and tends to have one sided views and the statistics are just that -statistics.
Knife crime has been prevelant in Britain since Georgian times. Glasgow was famous for it's knife attacks way back in the fities and sixties, London too was known for it's gang warfare mostly with knives. It's been a problem that has been with us for centuries not just recently.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knife-uk-the-rise-of-knife-culture-422661.html

 

[Hand Sword]

I would agree with the idea of control being folly. Weapons are everywhere and can be made from almost anything. Take one away and a criminal will find and use another. Look at prisons. Even with the tightest controls, look at the types of weapons created by the inmates. A sharpened stick, rock, etc.. It's everywhere and uncontrollable.

 

[Tez3]

Does that mean then we shouldn't try to control the amount of weapons on the street, that we should ignore knife carrying youths because we can't stop knife crime?
Should we allow a free for all and have far worse consequences?
I think not! to say we shouldn't have weapons control is naive in the extreme, how can we allow people to carry knives on the basis that they can pick up a stick, sharpen it and stab someone so we won't bother taking the knife off them. What sort of message is it sending?
Yes theres weapons in prison but how many more would there be if no one did searches for them, how many more people would be killed or injured if it was ignored.
Carrying weapons is illegal, should we ignore the law then just because it's inconvenient or awkward trying to police it? No we have to do our best to uphold the law, to send the message out that carrying weapons is unacceptable even if that message doesn't get through. It's what a civilised society does anything else will lead to anarchy.

 

[Sukerkin]

I reckon I'm mostly in agreement with Irene on this.

But (isn't there always one of those ?) I do have to admit that my opinions on the subject have been swayed somewhat in recent months. Having seen the positive effects, of alllowing a responsibly armed population, reported by our American members, I think there is a very strong case for stepping back a century or so in our legal framework.

If nothing else, we tried suppression and confiscation of handguns and it simply made things worse.

 

[Tez3]

The main problem here is that the knives/weapons aren't in the hands of responsible people. The temptation with carrying a weapon is that you will use it.
Way back when, the SAS and SBS doing anti terrorist training were always told that if a female terrorist is carrying a gun shoot them first as women feel less able to defend themselves physically than men therefor will always shoot first. men who think the can sort something out physically are less likely to shoot first. the same with carrying weapons. It's the same as carrying knives etc, young people are far more likely to use them first before fighting it out physically.
Americans rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view have always been used to carrying weapons, it's a different culture from ours. I believe if the law were changed to allow us to carry guns etc we'd have a far worse situation on our hands.
We've had a lot of high profile cases of stabbing and shooting recently making it look as if violence is on the increase, quite honestly it's not. In fact violent crimes are actually down, thats not from stats thats from experience.
The past was much worse, binge drinking, muggings, rapes and general violence was far more widespread in Victorian times right up to the last war. It's just we have the media working things up into a frenzy, a government that wants to scare people so it can bring in draconian laws to control us and other pundits who like to pontificate on our violent times which to be honest are largly a myth!
It may not be totally safe in the UK, no where is but the country has never been safer to walk out in!

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/grub/grub.htm

 

[Grenadier]

Punishing law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals is silly. It does absolutely nothing to cut down on crime, and only encourages criminals.

The proven method is to punish those who use weapons to commit crimes. If someone commits a crime using a weapon, then increase the sentence, and force the criminals to serve their sentence. Simply put, if a criminal is behind bars, he's not going to be physically capable of commit crimes against the general public.

It doesn't matter what country one lives in; the logical thing to do is to simply punish the criminals, but then again, politicians have never really been known for logic.

Weapons do not cause crime. In fact, there's something to be said about trying to use reverse causation, linking the availability of weapons to crime rates. If someone honestly thinks that the reverse causation argument holds any water, then he would have to believe that insulin causes diabetes, just because a much higher percentage of diabetics are in possession of insulin...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Punishing law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals is silly. It does absolutely nothing to cut down on crime, and only encourages criminals.

The proven method is to punish those who use weapons to commit crimes. If someone commits a crime using a weapon, then increase the sentence, and force the criminals to serve their sentence. Simply put, if a criminal is behind bars, he's not going to be physically capable of commit crimes against the general public.

It doesn't matter what country one lives in; the logical thing to do is to simply punish the criminals, but then again, politicians have never really been known for logic.

Weapons do not cause crime. In fact, there's something to be said about trying to use reverse causation, linking the availability of weapons to crime rates. If someone honestly thinks that the reverse causation argument holds any water, then he would have to believe that insulin causes diabetes, just because a much higher percentage of diabetics are in possession of insulin...

Well thought out and a strong reasoned approach to dealing with criminals.

 

[Ahriman]

Ahem, due to my sometimes parasitic and immoral behaviour I get fresh info on the prices of black markets about twice a year. There IS black market, there IS support to it, and there IS a huge selection of hardware from pistols to portable missile launchers. Criminals have access to firearms and explosives anywhere, anytime - after all, they are criminals right because they IGNORE laws. This won't change even if you sentence illegal gun owners to death.
Now having police is nice but having them everywhere is short path to a dictatorship. Hungarians experienced this when our favourite soviet friends stayed here for that 50 years. And even if they try to be everywhere, they just can't be. And an unarmed civilian is an unarmed civilian...
Even if some would manage to totally eradicate weapons from the world, criminals would still exist and would use sticks, stones and the like. If you eradicate EVERYTHING usable as a weapon, criminals would exist even then - using their fists and feet and elbows and........


Now making an overly broad statement as an idea maybe worth considering: if a country would have a classical militia, ordering inhabitants to wear and use weapons, even a crime rate of 20% would mean that the criminals are outgunned 1 to 4.

 

[Langenschwert]

Does that mean then we shouldn't try to control the amount of weapons on the street, that we should ignore knife carrying youths because we can't stop knife crime?

You can't ignore the crime, but you also can't use solution that doesn't work and say "at least we're doing something", because if the solution doesn't work, then you really aren't doing anything at all. The faulty solution may even make things worse.

Carrying weapons is illegal, should we ignore the law then just because it's inconvenient or awkward trying to police it? No we have to do our best to uphold the law, to send the message out that carrying weapons is unacceptable even if that message doesn't get through. It's what a civilised society does anything else will lead to anarchy.

A civilised society is one where people follow a code that allows for a free and stabile existence. There is nothing contradictory between having a well-armed population and being civilised.

The fact of the matter is that concealed carry laws appear to lower crime rates. This may not be the appropriate solution for every society but it's efficacy has at least been confirmed in the U.S. The jurisdictions that introduce strict gun control have their crime rates spike. After all, if you know that there are no guns in the house you're about to rob, you feel much safer as a criminal. Criminals will migrate to gun-free areas because simply put, the hunting is better... the prey can't fight back. Take a look at how the rape rates plummeted in Florida with the introduction of concealed carry and defensive pistol courses offered by the police for women.

So what's the solution for Britain's crime rate? I don't know. What I believe is that introducing concealed carry in a certain jurisdiction might be in order. That way a change in the crime rate can be recorded if there is one.

My firm opinion is that personal safety is a personal responsibility. The State should allow the people the means to defend themselves. If that means carrying weapons, so be it. We shouldn't be hung up on what civilised society "looks like". We should be concerned with how to give the maximum safety and freedom to the most people. That's what civilization is.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Tez3]

I think perhaps people should stop giving solutions to something they perceive as a huge problem when it isn't. The media frenzy about knife carrying would have you thinking everyone carries knives here. That is far from the truth. Whatever you choose to think we don't have a huge crime rate for violent crimes here, not even with the massaging of the statistics by the government.
I don't understand how we are punishing innocent people here, there is no a great public outcry here to carry weapons. If you ask people here they don't want to carry weapons and rightly or wrongly they actually prefer the police not to either. The crime rate here simply doesn't warrant the carrying of concealed weapons nor is the British pyche geared for carrying weapons. Posters on this board apart very very few British people know how to use weapons, it would appall the majority if any motions was made to carry weapons.
What we do have is increasingly a youth population who copy the American gang scene. They see it on the televison, films and in music, the American 'gangsta' has become the new 'hero' to many British young men. The violence that goes with these gangs has also been copied by youths who have a prediliction for violence anyway. Add this to the drug dealing culture and there you have a powderkeg of violence waiting to kick off.
a great deal of the youth stabbings have been gang related. many of the gangs are also West Indian, the Yardies. If you look at the ages of the nearly always young men who are stabbed you'll find they are between about 14 and 20. They are always nearly in the same parts of the country too.
It's not knife or weapons control you should be railing at but looking closer into where the actual crimes involving weapons are taking place. the general population carrying weapons isn't going to defeat the gangs anytime soon.

http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/GangsofBritain.html

http://www.london.gov.uk/gangs/

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-41117.html

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/file...rpetrators/perpet_pdf/2002_Bullock_Tilley.pdf


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2324346.ece

 

[Tez3]

I apologise if I come over snippy in my last post but it really annoys me well outsiders albeit well meaning start saying oh the solution to this or that problem is such and such.
As I said there is no public will here to carry weapons, a minority will of course say we should but by far the majority don't want American style weapons carrying.
Maybe we are trying to hold back a tide of weapons crime but we will do it in our own way. Well meaning criticisms and accusations that we are punishing the innocent by stopping them carrying weapons only serves to put 'Brits' backs up as does calling us Brits. I don't post up criticising American laws or your customs. We're not perfect by any means but an onslaught from non British people telling us where we are going wrong does nothing for international understanding. :uhyeah:

 

[Ahriman]

Every human being and country have the right to solve problems as they wish or feel correct. Now neither humans nor countries like to get too much input in their own ideas, which makes for such a diversity.
Time will tell who or which country is/was right. As long as it is not that time, mine and I stay prepared.
Opinions expressed by me weren't intended as attacks or "I know soooo much better"-like posts, they were only opinions based on observations. (the part about criminals having access to hardware is not opinion though, it's a fact)

 

[Tez3]

Every human being and country have the right to solve problems as they wish or feel correct. Now neither humans nor countries like to get too much input in their own ideas, which makes for such a diversity.
Time will tell who or which country is/was right. As long as it is not that time, mine and I stay prepared.
Opinions expressed by me weren't intended as attacks or "I know soooo much better"-like posts, they were only opinions based on observations. (the part about criminals having access to hardware is not opinion though, it's a fact)

You're right and I understand that, I just don't believe doing things the American way is right for this country just as I don't believe that people who haven't expeienced our way of life can understand how things work here.
Much is being made of a problem we have with young people, gangs and violence. It's this that is making the headlines. Of course we've always had violent criminals here but on the whole not on a huge scale that warrants the general populace arming up.
Gun/weapon control is an emotive subject in the States, it's not here.We don't have debates about gun carrying, conccealed weapons etc. people are free to start these debates but they don't apart from one commentator in a liberal newspaper. We don't have the same views about carrying guns and weapons that Americans do so criticising our laws as regards weapons is unfair at least. Our laws whether you approve of them or not do for the most part more good than harm. Nothings perfect but we try. The glamorisation of American gangs that is contantly on our screens and radios etc is something we are trying to deal with.

 

[Sukerkin]

I agree completely that a large part of our 'problems' comes from those of teenage years aping the styles and actions of those that they have come to see as glamorous via the auspices of TV and film.

I think that this has happened before to an extent with the gangster movies of the B&W era but, then, even the core characters that were 'bad guys' generally got their comeupance and by police/agents didn't compromise themselves down to the villains level to 'win'.

Of course, that was fiction but do not underestimate the power of such things to mould young minds. I grew up with 'heroes' who aspired to a certain code of ethics and that transcended the violence that was there to make the films exciting. The current generation(s) have grown up with anti-heroes.

I think we see the difference in how they behave - that lack of an aspired-to image of honour (fallacious as it might be in the real world) combined with no discipline and no consequences (unless they happen to kill themselves) leads to a value system that does not involve the same tenets of general decency that people of my age grew up with.

I can hear an example of this right now as 'ricers', that have been ousted from the local city of Stoke are now (at gone midnight) using the A34 that passes by my house as a 'race track', complete with the delights of dance 'music' (oh for ironic quotes).

Anyhow, cleaving more tightly to topic, I know that Irene is speaking in good-faith and from a position of knowledge when she tells that things are safer now than they used to be. I have a lingering question tho' - why doesn't it feel safer? Fifteen years or so ago I would think nothing of walking through any part of Stoke at any time of day and night and would not have any trepidation. Now there are places I will not go unless I am driving through them. Is it just a symptom of middle-age?

I'd feel much safer if the laws against wearing swords openly in public were repealed - at least I might have a chance of enforcing my right to peace then .

 

[Deaf Smith]

A while back on a 'animal world' channel on TV they had a special on young rouge elephants that were causeing all kinds of damage and death in Africa. The reason? They had lost their parents to poachers and thus never been brought up correctly as they would have been if the older elephants had still be around.

Well that's the real problem. Not guns or knives (Cain killed Able with a rock, hint hint...) but broken familes that end up with youths on the streets meeting the wrong crowd and turning to a life of crime. Easy divorce, pregnancy out of wedlock, no elders to counsel or correct when they do wrong, all lead to young adults with no set of morals. No set of good values. And many become socialpaths. No empaty for other people.

Yea, that's the real problem. But it's so easy to ban an object instead of strengthning the family. Real easy for politicians to do.

Deaf

 

[thardey]

You're right and I understand that, I just don't believe doing things the American way is right for this country just as I don't believe that people who haven't expeienced our way of life can understand how things work here.

Too true, it's too easy for anybody to assume that the rest of the world works the same way as their own little corner does.

Much is being made of a problem we have with young people, gangs and violence. It's this that is making the headlines. Of course we've always had violent criminals here but on the whole not on a huge scale that warrants the general populace arming up.
*snip*
The glamorisation of American gangs that is contantly on our screens and radios etc is something we are trying to deal with.

I guess that's where we, as Americans, feel like we do have some advice to offer -- you're dealing with our problems, in your country. That is, we've exported our problems to you by way of TV and movies. What makes matters worse is that those who want to "ape" what they see on American movies don't understand the reality of American culture that goes on behind those movies.

And it's not as though you inherited our problems because we can't control them, and they grew -- you've inherited the fictional version of our problems. So when we look to the U.K. and see gang violence there -- essentially our version of gang violence, as though a foreign weed has begun to take over your crops -- we tend to say "This is how we dealt with the reality-based version of gangs here, or at least slowed the growth. Perhaps, if you're dealing with American-style gangs, you should consider American-style countermeasures."

The gun does seem to be growing into the same iconic symbol of power as it is here in the States, it's just doing it in the sub-culture of gangs, and no where else. It is an emotive subject to gang members -- here, in the media, and in the minds of any who want to copy it. They're introducing "American Rules" into your culture.

If you were dealing with the British version of gangs, of which I'm sure there is a rich history, we would probably be more likely to keep our nose out of it. Though probably not - we're pretty nosy by nature!

 

[theletch1]

Too true, it's too easy for anybody to assume that the rest of the world works the same way as their own little corner does.



I guess that's where we, as Americans, feel like we do have some advice to offer -- you're dealing with our problems, in your country. That is, we've exported our problems to you by way of TV and movies. What makes matters worse is that those who want to "ape" what they see on American movies don't understand the reality of American culture that goes on behind those movies.

And it's not as though you inherited our problems because we can't control them, and they grew -- you've inherited the fictional version of our problems. So when we look to the U.K. and see gang violence there -- essentially our version of gang violence, as though a foreign weed has begun to take over your crops -- we tend to say "This is how we dealt with the reality-based version of gangs here, or at least slowed the growth. Perhaps, if you're dealing with American-style gangs, you should consider American-style countermeasures."

The gun does seem to be growing into the same iconic symbol of power as it is here in the States, it's just doing it in the sub-culture of gangs, and no where else. It is an emotive subject to gang members -- here, in the media, and in the minds of any who want to copy it. They're introducing "American Rules" into your culture.

If you were dealing with the British version of gangs, of which I'm sure there is a rich history, we would probably be more likely to keep our nose out of it. Though probably not - we're pretty nosy by nature!

Often times, though, it isn't just being nosy. Nor is it attempting to say "You must do it this way or that way." Here at least (on MT) it's a simple matter of discussion. It IS a discussion forum, after all. Feel free to point out why what America does wouldn't work for your particular country. Heck, most of what America does doesn't work for America in this situation. Discussing the matter in no way means that we here on the board are attempting to bash our British cousins.

 

[Tez3]

Sukerkin, you feel less safe these days because everything that happens these days is reported in the media and people are less distant from each other. Crime has always been with us, obviously, but you simply didn't hear about it as much. There's always been peadophiles but public knowledge of them has become more widespread.

A cross section of women were asked how they felt about going out on their own at night, nearly all said they were afraid because of what they had seen on televison programmes and read in newspapers. when told the actual proportion on lone women who were attacked they would not believe the figures were so low.

I not saying there aren't dangers to lone women but much of it is urban myths, like someone who knows someone who knows someone who had their organs removed after being knocked unconcious.
The other part of not feeling so safe is the governments we have! It's always been a campaigning point that whoever gets in will 'do' something about crime, maintaining the myth that crime figures are horrendous is always a good vote catcher as you can promise quite easily to reduce crime. Remember the slogan "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"?

Another thing that makes crime figures appear higher is there is more reporting of crimes.The way crimes are reported has also changed. Rape is a crime that is not on the increase but appears to be because women at last are reporting it instead of suffering in silence or having their allegations dismissed. Domestic violence is another case in point, spousal abuse was shunned by most police forces and either reported as a 'domestic' or not even noted, now of course it's reported and treated as what it is..assault but the downside is that assault figures appear to be up.

Newspapers keen to make political points and in need of sensationalist headlines find crime a godsend and to be honest the British public has a fascination with it! Look at the countless murder mysteries and detective/police series we have on the box! This too gives the impression there is a lot of crime. Oxford for example is hardly the murder capitol of the world which is what is seems if you watch Morse! Same as Murder She Wrotes Cabot Cove, I doubt New England has that many murders!

These things do sink into our subconcious though and we do think there is more crime that there is, this isn't to say that the crime we have is trivial.
Crime sells, note the lack of big headlines and questions in the House about the Welsh suicides as opposed to the knife murders. All are equally tragic but only a couple of journalists have followed the Welsh story. (over 20 young people from the same small area in Wales have committed suicide)

Gang warfare isn't new here, remember the Krays (incidentally my instructor was at the last ones funeral..don't ask lol but do google 'Dave Courtney', a mate of his!), Glasgow, London, Manchester and Liverpool have always had no go areas for the public. However apart from the Krays who liked a showbiz lifestyle the general public weren't aware of the sheer amount of violence that went on, newspaper didn't report it nearly as much unless it was very sensational.

I don't despair about the crime figures here, we're not perfect but are far from being a lawless society.