The esoteric heritage in …..

Wing Woo Gar

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I think the Japanese glyph for kokoro/shin is part of the problem because it refers to spirit/heart/mind and for sone reason the ‘spirit’ interpretation has been latched onto in English. By simply interchanging spirit for ‘mind’ and I think it becomes much more meaningful: ‘develop a strong mind’.
Please correct me, but in Shinto isn’t it only items that are over a certain age that receive/develop a Kami? Like a 100 year old umbrella for instance. So is your sword old enough to have a Kami?
 

Gyakuto

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Please correct me, but in Shinto isn’t it only items that are over a certain age that receive/develop a Kami? Like a 100 year old umbrella for instance. So is your sword old enough to have a Kami?
No, kami can reside in anything. Shinto is rather obsessed with purity/cleanliness, so new is better. The Grand Shinto Shrine at Ise is dismantled rebuilt with new materials, every 20 years for this reason!
 

JowGaWolf

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It may be a form of mild self-hypnosis
I took a class on speed reading and self-hypnosis as a kid to help me with school. The speeding reading helped but it takes a lot of energy to do. It works on the concept that we can see and understand an entire sentence without reading each word. The best way I can compare it to would be sparring. Instead of focusing on the eyes, the chest, or the hand, I'm focusing on the upper torso and hips area at the same time. I'm focusing in on the area but not the actual torso and hips. This allows me to see small movement, sometimes it's a constant fight to keep the vision unfocused like that and if you have old eyes, then it takes some effort to get out of that habit when you aren't sparring.
When in use your brain dumps the detail of what the eyes see so things become blury

Focus on not Focusing. That's a real Martial Arts contradiction. lol.

Oh and on the hypnosis part. Spritualisms says to always ask for protection when doing it because it opens doors for spirits to visit you and not all of them bad. Sometimes they come through the door and sometimes you go through the door. Spirit coming through the door = new ghost in your home or an attachment. In Thailand they say that your shoulders hurt because a ghost is riding on your shoulders. So if you see something like this, then you know it's a Thai Spiritualism reference.

dt-shutter-120917.jpg


When you go through the door then you'll have what they call an out of body experience. This is where you know that you are asleep but your are active mentally as if you are out of your body. Sometimes you stay in your room, other times you go somewhere else. They say that if you have a nightmare and you are trying to wake yourself up in your sleep, then that's an example of an out of body experience.

But they say if you want proof then do self-hypnosis and keep a blank mind when doing it.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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No, kami can reside in anything. Shinto is rather obsessed with purity/cleanliness, so new is better. The Grand Shinto Shrine at Ise is dismantled rebuilt with new materials, every 20 years for this reason!
I ask this because with the stories of Yokai, the older the Yokai get the more powerful they become. Some have an arc that changes their look or behavior over time. Take cats or foxes for instance.
 

JowGaWolf

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Musashi referenced taking on the spirit of a rock, as did Paul Simon in one of his songs, ("I am a rock."..."A rock feels no pain." I think this is the kind of thing we are talking about here.
Agreed. But Native Americans believe there are spirits in everything living and non-living. Same with the druids in the UK. Native Americans have things like Ice Spirits and Fire spirits. I guess one would have to define the culture first because every culture has its own set of rules, warnings, and definitions. From what I hear Ninjitsu is on a spiritual level as well. The amazing thing is that none of the systems that have a spiritual context don't claim to be able to throw chi balls lol.
 

Gyakuto

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I ask this because with the stories of Yokai, the older the Yokai get the more powerful they become. Some have an arc that changes their look or behavior over time. Take cats or foxes for instance.
Yes but Kami are real, yokai are just to control children 😑😉
 

mograph

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Focus on not Focusing. That's a real Martial Arts contradiction. lol.

I've found that many paradoxes use two definitions of the same word. In this case, regarding "focus," "focus on not focusing" could mean "choose a broad or diffuse scope of attention." But it's not as poetic.
 

JowGaWolf

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Well a cursory look at an online dictionary suggests you’re incorrect-

Dictionary:
Definitions from Oxford Languages
noun
  1. 1.
    a system of belief or religious practice based on supposed communication with the spirits of the dead, especially through mediums.

  2. 2.
    PHILOSOPHY
    the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter, or that spirit is the only reality.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that definition comes from some person who doesn't practice it. People who practice it will tell you that it existed long before religion.

This is a more accurate definition: Source

"Spirituality is different from religion. While it can involve the worship of God, it has more to do with sensory states involving mysticism and awe, beyond the physical self, society, or the world. Spirituality is said to encompass the ineffable (words can’t describe), the noetic (psychic enlightenment), and the metaphysical."

The problem that you have is that it will have different meanings depending on who you talk to but many of those who practice it will say about the same thing.

That definition 1.1 is based on the western view of spiritualism which was said to have started in the 1800's. There's no standard for it so dates and definitions will differ greatly.

The problem with the 1800 date is that tribes were communicating with spirits long before 1800's.
 

JowGaWolf

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Druidism is a modern (probably Victorian) invention. Just saying…it doesn’t comprise ‘ancient wisdom’.
Druids are old school pre Victorian. I don't much about them other than they were big into the spiritualism. I don't know any group in ancient times that wasn't. They also were combat trained, but I don't know much about that part. To be honest it's a challenge for me to shift through the modern-day view of them vs the historical view of them.
National geographic has an article on them but I couldn't read it. I didn't feel like signing up for a free account.


Spirituality probably isn't the right word then
The concept tends to get translated as things like "develop a strong spirit", terms like shinden, shin-gi-tai etc appear in the traditions, but not sure if there's a good word in English for it
It's probably the right word., it's just one of those words with a wide range of definitions that just needs a lot of context. The reason why I say that it's the correct word because we can take a look a traditional warrior dances from other tribes and see spirituality embedded into their traditional dances. The Hakka
"Its Importance In Māori Culture
These ceremonial dances are an integral part of Māori culture and are deeply respected by its people. It is a way of expressing cultural identity and pride, as well as a means of honoring ancestors and spiritual beliefs. It is used to communicate important messages and inspire others."
Source: Haka - The Rich Culture Of Maori | The Spirit Of Māori Culture

I would be surprised if Japanese culture didn't have something similar
 

JowGaWolf

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Yes but Kami are real, yokai are just to control children 😑😉
I'm not sure about the quality of the source: Meaning that I haven't compared more than one. My watch is telling me to do something other than continue to sit down lol. Just wanted to provide this link

"In Japan — informed by Shinto beliefs around notions of animism — a soul (“reikon”) lives within all existence and phenomena. Everyday things — from objects to plants to mountains — can be defined as “kami” or deities."

 

JowGaWolf

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After all of this. Have we decided which aspect of spirituality best fits Martial Arts from Japan?

I've tried to find village or tribal dances of Japan and all I get is theatre stuff. How did ancient Japanese warriors get pumped up for battle?
 
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HighKick

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That's a possibility.


Nope it's not the same. We name religions but we don't name spiritualism. Another way to look at is to remove the main figures of a religion and you'll end up with emptiness. Does Buddhism exist without Buddda? Would the teachings be the same? Most people who believe in Spiritualism have a personal story about. The evidence is an issue about belief. The evidence is "Here is what happened to me." If religion is a pie vey uniform, then spiritualism is like noodles, all over the place facing many different directions.

Some people get way out there when it comes to Spiritualism. Even to the point where space aliens are spirits and that we all sign a life contract as spirits to be born as humans because we are bord as spirits (true theory). I just want to bring positive things into this world and kick and punch a few people in the face along the way. lol

This is why I say sparring is so important. The concept of visualizing yourself as a tiger would make sense to someone who is applying the techniques.

If I told you that this is the intensity that you need to have when applying tiger techniques in a fight. Then now you have a good idea of the intensity level you need to use. Which is accurate for being in a fight.

If I said that this is the intensity level that you have for tiger techniques in a fight, then you'll probably think you will get your butt kicked that day.

A person who has either sparred or has been in fights will be able to associate more with the real tigers fighting. The person who least likely to understand the visualization is the one who doesn't show up for class. Of course seeing how tigers fight is a big plus. lol.


Psychology studies the "woo woo" part of it as well. Some think they are the same.
Loved the Small Tiger video, but I cannot agree with the intensity reference. Anyone, and I mean anyone would burnout it the fought with the pedal on the floor the whole time.
 

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Zen principle of mushin and eventually be erroneously thought of as ‘not thinking’ and ‘automatic reaction to an attack’ (which it is not).
I agree even if I have not studied the actual eastern original writings but I think a rational and reasnonable meaning of mushin is similar to psychological flow. It has indeed nothing todo with something automatic, but about the balance between ability and expectations. A balance between arousal and relaxation (symphatetic and vagal balance) where there is a minimum of negative stress or waste of energy. This is an ongoing research field in psychology and neuroscience. I know in particular a few researchers in music psychology that use this concept heavily and when they try to "measure" this they study the ratio of vagal and symphatetic tones during arousal, often measured via heart rate variability and/or skin conductance.

It is even a note in wikipedia, and it makes perfect sense to me.... and it requires no mysticism, it is probably about balance in the parts of the nervous system first of all.

"In many martial arts, the term Budō is used to describe psychological flow.[71] Mixed martial arts champion and Karate master Lyoto Machida uses meditation techniques before fights to attain mushin, a concept that, by his description, is in all respects equal to flow. "

-- Flow (psychology) - Wikipedia
 

JowGaWolf

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Anyone, and I mean anyone would burnout it the fought with the pedal on the floor the whole time.
That's how small tiger is supposed to be performed all out with speed and power. In the clip of the two tigers. What did they do? All out with speed and power.

In fight application I wouldn't try to fight you with only tiger techniques. If I can get through small tiger with full speed and full power then a fight will be no problem. I personally don't think anyone would last long after a successful application technique.

If you stike someone under the chin with full force and full speed, as if you are trying to make the back of the skull touch there spine, then there would be too much damage to the neck to continue for much longer. Some of the kung fu stuff is extremely violent.
 

dunc

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After all of this. Have we decided which aspect of spirituality best fits Martial Arts from Japan?

I've tried to find village or tribal dances of Japan and all I get is theatre stuff. How did ancient Japanese warriors get pumped up for battle?
Flower arranging :)
 
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