Technique I found really effective

marques

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
1,187
Reaction score
380
Location
Essex, UK
In the real world, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with one move. To assume that your opponent will do nothing (as showing in that clip) when you "parry" is not realistic.

If you can make 2 moves while your opponent can only make 1 move, that mean you are twice as fast as your opponent. If that's the case, anything you do will work.

That is good logic (and a common flaw in non competitive styles), but there is more than that.

Regardless the clip, that I did not watch, trained people will not react to a 'Inofensive' jab, which becomes something else In the way. And you did 2 moves when the opponent is starting the first move. If the opponent overreacts your first move, it becomes even easier. Of course, trained people will recognise that 'Inofensive' jab second time it comes...

There is psychology, or whatever, up to physics. :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,643
Reaction score
2,706
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
If the opponent overreacts your first move, it becomes even easier.
When you use "downward parry" on your opponent's leading arm, your opponent can

- resist (contact is established). You can then grab his wrist.
- borrow your downward force and spin his arm into a hay-maker (no contact is established). You can then wrap his arm.

IMO, when you do a "downward parry", you should also expect your opponent to respond in both ways. You will need to train counters against both responds.

Some people don't like this kind of "if you do ..., I'll do ..." training. But I just don't see any master key that can open all locks.
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
My style: Kali, Wing Chun, Silat
My counter: Assuming that my Wu Sau/Bantay Kamay is in place, I catch your elbow with my rear hand. I then use my pulled hand (which is now below and past your attack elbow) to move behind you or your outside, by raising and guiding your attack elbow to go past me (see Hubad Lubad). I am now in a more favorable position than you. Your move. :)

Keyboard sparring is fun. I'll probably get trolled.

That sounds like part of the Hubud drill and that check of the elbow would be fairly hard to pull off while your balance/structure is being thrown off by a successful wrist lock (Inosanto-Kali/WC here ;) )
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
As for the OP, you are better off just doing a quick trap of that limb and striking so that the formerly trapping hand can be in a position to defend the opponent's other hand, which is coming.
 
OP
KangTsai

KangTsai

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
809
Reaction score
167
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Agree! The distance is not proper. You are using 1/2 of your arm length while your opponent still have his full arm length. You have to pull really hard so your opponent's head will move toward you. But since the "wrist" is not a good pulling contact point, the chance that you can pull your opponent's body forward is quite low. IMO, to pull on the "elbow joint"l followed by elbow strike will make better sense.

Also If your opponent just raises his elbow (as WC Bon Shou), he can interrupt your elbow strike. Your wrist control cannot prevent your opponent from raising his elbow joint.

In the following clip (a dirty trick in jack wrestling), the distance is more reasonable. You have 1/2 of you arm length while your opponent has no arm length at all.

But who would keep their arm out in that situation? If it fails, it's an arm drag for me.
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
But who would keep their arm out in that situation? If it fails, it's an arm drag for me.

Here is the thing. If the person you are fighting knows what they are doing you can't simply turn a punch into an arm drag. There is a saying I am fond of regarding the use of one hand, "control the wrist, you can control the arm, control the elbow and you control the man." Their natural reaction is going to be withdrawing the punch, even if you didn't grab the wrist, when you do they are DEFINITELY pulling back, and putting you in as much of a spot of bother as they are in. What you are doing works okay in sparring, so long as the other person plays along.

Tonight in class another student tried something similar to me (he was new). They grabbed the wrist and I simply pulled back with my arm while doing a relief step, yes he still had my wrist but now he was off balance and mine to play with using 3 other limbs, I just continued the rotation started by my relief step and face planted him though. If he was knowledgeable enough to do a relief step as well, the wrist grab would have broken of it's own accord.

I then demonstrated other things I could have done. As noted a pseudo bong sau (because the angle at the elbow is wrong but it is still a cover), If I react first I crash in with my own elbow so now it's a matter of who hits first.
 
Last edited:
OP
KangTsai

KangTsai

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
809
Reaction score
167
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
How can i learn to draw like that!
Plz explain :bear:
I'm no authority on drawing good
Cute-Rabbits-026.jpg
 
OP
KangTsai

KangTsai

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
809
Reaction score
167
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Here is the thing. If the person you are fighting knows what they are doing you can't simply turn a punch into an arm drag. There is a saying I am fond of regarding the use of one hand, "control the wrist, you can control the arm, control the elbow and you control the man." Their natural reaction is going to be withdrawing the punch, even if you didn't grab the wrist, when you do they are DEFINITELY pulling back, and putting you in as much of a spot of bother as they are in. What you are doing works okay in sparring, so long as the other person plays along.

Tonight in class another student tried something similar to me (he was new). They grabbed the wrist and I simply pulled back with my arm while doing a relief step, yes he still had my wrist but now he was off balance and mine to play with using 3 other limbs, I just continued the rotation started by my relief step and face planted him though. If he was knowledgeable enough to do a relief step as well, the wrist grab would have broken of it's own accord.

I then demonstrated other things I could have done. As noted a pseudo bong sau (because the angle at the elbow is wrong but it is still a cover), If I react first I crash in with my own elbow so now it's a matter of who hits first.
I know a wrist grab calls for pulling back your arm immediately. I mean I can do an arm drag if they do keep it out. Again, I wouldn't use this now, more in favour of a guard sweep elbow like a video seen on this thread.
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
I know a wrist grab calls for pulling back your arm immediately. I mean I can do an arm drag if they do keep it out. Again, I wouldn't use this now, more in favour of a guard sweep elbow like a video seen on this thread.

That's okay then but I would argue you can't drag when the opponent is also using proper footwork. Footwork, imo, is the most overlooked part of MA training.

That said I can just say one thing from over 18 years as a LEO. Even an untrained brawler doesn't keep their arm out. Thing is a little alteration could make your trapping work. Briefly trap that arm, not with a grab, and then attack with the opposite hand. Nothing fancy, just taking one hand out of the equation to open the way for a moment. Kinda following the three principles I follow...

Fight on the blind side
Simultaneous attack and defense (in your case trap and strike)
Never meet force with force.

So don't grab the arm just slap it down so that same hand comes back up to defend while striking with the other. Worse that happens? The strike with the other hand becomes a block for the hand you didn't trap. Best it rings their bell. This is of course only if striking is the goal. :)
 
Last edited:
OP
KangTsai

KangTsai

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
809
Reaction score
167
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
That's okay then but I would argue you can't drag when the opponent is also using proper footwork. Footwork, imo, is the most overlooked part of MA training.

That said I can just say one thing from over 18 years as a LEO. Even an untrained brawler doesn't keep their arm out. Thing is a little alteration could make your trapping work. Briefly trap that arm, not with a grab, and then attack with the opposite hand. Nothing fancy, just taking one hand out of the equation to open the way for a moment. Kinda following the three principles I follow...

Fight on the blind side
Simultaneous attack and defense (in your case trap and strike)
Never meet force with force.

So don't grab the arm just slap it down so that same hand comes back up to defend while striking with the other. Worse that happens? The strike with the other hand becomes a block for the hand you didn't trap. Best it rings their bell. This is of course only if striking is the goal. :)
I disagree that footwork is overlooked in Martial Arts. European sword fighting, boxing, taekwondo, muay Thai etc.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,735
Reaction score
5,629
Here is the thing. If the person you are fighting knows what they are doing you can't simply turn a punch into an arm drag. There is a saying I am fond of regarding the use of one hand, "control the wrist, you can control the arm, control the elbow and you control the man." Their natural reaction is going to be withdrawing the punch, even if you didn't grab the wrist, when you do they are DEFINITELY pulling back, and putting you in as much of a spot of bother as they are in. What you are doing works okay in sparring, so long as the other person plays along.

Tonight in class another student tried something similar to me (he was new). They grabbed the wrist and I simply pulled back with my arm while doing a relief step, yes he still had my wrist but now he was off balance and mine to play with using 3 other limbs, I just continued the rotation started by my relief step and face planted him though. If he was knowledgeable enough to do a relief step as well, the wrist grab would have broken of it's own accord.

I then demonstrated other things I could have done. As noted a pseudo bong sau (because the angle at the elbow is wrong but it is still a cover), If I react first I crash in with my own elbow so now it's a matter of who hits first.

If they have your wrist you can generally still throw elbows. But otherwise hand fighting is its own game.
 

HW1

Yellow Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
44
Reaction score
20
That sounds like part of the Hubud drill and that check of the elbow would be fairly hard to pull off while your balance/structure is being thrown off by a successful wrist lock (Inosanto-Kali/WC here ;) )
In this situation, which was what I originally envisioned:
Attacker - L hand to their Lower R side holding your R wrist (like chambered for Heaven 6). I don't see this as a lock. R horizontal elbow thrown.
Defender: R hand past the attacker's R Lower side, under their thrown elbow. The initial pull might throw your balance, but stopping the elbow with your L hand or vertical arm should counteract your forward motion. Now go to hubad. I've tried this with a partner yesterday and with his L arm crossed over his body throwing an elbow, there was no way he could stop my R hand from going Up and Back (tan sau) to keep me from passing his elbow.

Granted just because it worked on one person doesn't mean it will work on everyone, especially to those with a different style.

Minor pet peeve: It's spelled "hubad" not "hubud". (Native Filipino speaker here ;))
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
I disagree that footwork is overlooked in Martial Arts. European sword fighting, boxing, taekwondo, muay Thai etc.
I mean by your average practitioner, not the arts themselves. Sometimes practitioners get too tied up in the attacks and not the footwork that makes em work.

Apologies.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,643
Reaction score
2,706
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
you can't drag when the opponent is also using proper footwork.
When your opponent steps in and attack you, you also step in and attack him at the same time, the "footwork" will have little or no meaning at that moment. If you can force/bait your opponent to "commit" on his attack, you don't have to worry about his "footwork".
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
When your opponent steps in and attack you, you also step in and attack him at the same time, the "footwork" will have little or no meaning at that moment. If you can force/bait your opponent to "commit" on his attack, you don't have to worry about his "footwork".

The thing is even if you bait a strike they aren't going to keep their arm out so that a simple wrist grab (as opposed to a wrist lock) can be turned into a grab. When punches meet resistance they get pulled back. If you grab that wrist it is simply instinct to step back. If the person has some skill they may also step in.

Now doing a bonafide lock, that provides different options and what I am speaking about doesn't apply, but in my experience all a wrist grab does, typically is result in both you and your opponent having one limb out of the fight equation. You either keep fighting with 3 limbs or have what amounts to tug of war.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,735
Reaction score
5,629
The thing is even if you bait a strike they aren't going to keep their arm out so that a simple wrist grab (as opposed to a wrist lock) can be turned into a grab. When punches meet resistance they get pulled back. If you grab that wrist it is simply instinct to step back. If the person has some skill they may also step in.

Now doing a bonafide lock, that provides different options and what I am speaking about doesn't apply, but in my experience all a wrist grab does, typically is result in both you and your opponent having one limb out of the fight equation. You either keep fighting with 3 limbs or have what amounts to tug of war.

No if you have their arm then you have the advantage. Dont think that them latched on to your arm is a fifty/fifty.
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,049
it's good! Much easier to understand with a drawing.
It certainly did. Initially I thought he was talking about a traditional trap with one hand and a strike with the other elbow. The picture definitely helped to illustrate the maneuver in question.
 

Paul_D

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
437
Location
England
This is really not a move in a fight, per se. Nor is it really advised against someone skilled and reactive enough.

"Street self-defense"
Thanks

Well my thoughts would be if it works for you in that context then it works for you in that context, doesn't mean it will work for others or for you in other contexts though.

And next time, don't unitl they throw a punch ;-)
 
Top