Teachers Teaching off of Videos

[lostinseattle]

What would you do if you were going to a Chinese teacher of martial arts, and he taught mostly forms, say, mostly taiji but he said he'd teach you his 'secret' applications form. Of course for private rates by the hour.

And then the applications form looked nothing like the rest of his martial arts, and you asked former students about it, who showed you their version of his supposed 'secret' form, and it looked nothing like what he's teaching you.

So one day you were watching a video of Hung Gar and you saw the applications on that Hung Gar video, so you bought a bunch of other Hung Gar videos, and found some of the applications he taught you on there, not taiji at all. So you bought a bunch of apps videos from China and found the apps he was teaching you on those videos -- the exact same sequence in most cases -- and not from his martial arts at all.

You'd quit, wouldn't you? But the real question is ... do you confront him about it, and tell him he's a huge cheater, and show him the evidence, or do you just not return his phone calls?

 

[terryl965]

First off if he is teaching you via videos that he is learning, I would probaly ask simple question like how did you find this particular technique and how is it different from other techs. in the Art of choice and if he could not give me satifying answer than I would probaly look for a different direction to go in my training.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well, I'm gonna say I'd just leave and find someone else to train with. But, knowing myself as well as I think I do, I'd probably first go yell at him. Which I wouldn't recommend. All the chances of getting sued and all. Don't get me wrong, Tai Chi and Hung Gar are both good styles, and could yeild some wicked fighters if put together. But learning from a video is a no no. Especially if you cann't get someone who is an expert in the style to check what you're doing.
Good luck man. And I feel for yah, I really do. Keep us informed, and best of luck man.

 

[lostinseattle]

First off if he is teaching you via videos that he is learning, I would probaly ask simple question like how did you find this particular technique and how is it different from other techs. in the Art of choice and if he could not give me satifying answer than I would probaly look for a different direction to go in my training.

This is the kind of guy that doesn't like talking about anything ... basically giving you rolls eyes and you're not good enough and stuff if you question anything he says.

I guess the first clue should have been one day that he brought in a VCD to class and said he thought it was good and said I could take it home and tell him what I thought about it.

Maybe he was just trying to tell me all along he didn't want to teach me?

 

[lostinseattle]

Well, I'm gonna say I'd just leave and find someone else to train with. But, knowing myself as well as I think I do, I'd probably first go yell at him. Which I wouldn't recommend. All the chances of getting sued and all. Don't get me wrong, Tai Chi and Hung Gar are both good styles, and could yeild some wicked fighters if put together. But learning from a video is a no no. Especially if you cann't get someone who is an expert in the style to check what you're doing.
Good luck man. And I feel for yah, I really do. Keep us informed, and best of luck man.

I guess I'm not going to confront him because it is irksome and the last time I tried to confront him (it was just to ask why he never taught applications to his students, me in particular), he blew up and started throwing practice swords around the room.

Don't really know what to say about this except I think that I've lost patience with teachers in general. This was kindof the last nail in the coffin, so to speak. I'm tired of teachers who don't teach apps or require you to learn a bunch of new forms or hold back their applications in an attempt to make $. IMHO there should be some licensing and standards required and all MA teachers should require certification and licensing to be able to teach.

 

[Ceicei]

First of all, there is the possibility that your instructor may have learned these from his instructor. It doesn't necessarily mean he learned from a video, then taught you. However, if he is calling it something else other than what you saw (if exactly the same as on the video), then he may be guilty of mis representation, whether inadvertent (if taught by his instructor) or intentional (if from video).

Instead of challenging him, ask him first about his training background, his lineage, and about his instructor. Perhaps he or his instructor cross trains.

If your instructor's answers about his training background don't jibe, you might casually bring up that you found some interesting tapes that show the same thing, only that it came from a different style.

On the other hand, he might answer directly that where he learned was from
A video, not from his instructor.

Only you can determine what is acceptable for you and whether you want to continue training in that environment. You might find after answered satisfactorily, the issue became moot and you want to continue training with him. Possibly, you might find the issue to be a barrier and you lost your trust of/respect for him, then you will be better off going elsewhere with another instructor.

Whatever your decision, remember your training is more effective if you trust an instructor and the quality of instruction is suitable for you.

- Ceicei

 

[lostinseattle]

First of all, there is the possibility that your instructor may have learned these from his instructor. It doesn't necessarily mean he learned from a video, then taught you. However, if he is calling it something else other than what you saw (if exactly the same as on the video), then he may be guilty of mis representation, whether inadvertent (if taught by his instructor) or intentional (if from video).

He's from China. His instructor was from China. There's little known about him except for translations of his teacher's books done by another student who also studied with him a bit, who I talked to.

After talking to this student, this student is pretty sure (like 99 3/4% sure) that nothing he taught me he learned from his teacher because it's from a different MA entirely. (The student I spoke to is considered an authority in this particular MA with over 30 years experience).

Instead of challenging him, ask him first about his training background, his lineage, and about his instructor. Perhaps he or his instructor cross trains.

His instructor died several years ago. Never cross trained. Never studied anything else at all which is one of the selling points of his school.

Only you can determine what is acceptable for you and whether you want to continue training in that environment. You might find after answered satisfactorily, the issue became moot and you want to continue training with him. Possibly, you might find the issue to be a barrier and you lost your trust of/respect for him, then you will be better off going elsewhere with another instructor.

Whatever your decision, remember your training is more effective if you trust an instructor and the quality of instruction is suitable for you.

- Ceicei

The thing is, few people these days teach a lot of apps vs. forms. The problem with this particular instructor is that he doesn't like classes with multiple students, preferring privates, so it's impossible to get decent training in.

BUT, there's nowhere else that I've found around here that has decent apps and does good drilling with them.

I guess I will quit but not confront him. It's a sad situation, and I can't believe he did this, but I guess he was getting desperate for business. In Chinese ethics it's okay to cheat people like this if you're doing it for money, especially if they're lao guai.

 

[Ceicei]

Saw your follow up answers after I made my earlier post.

Well, since you don't trust him now nor have any more respect since becoming disillusioned, just leave and go train elsewhere. You'll feel better and your money can be put to more use at a higher quality and more friendly school.

- Ceicei

 

[lostinseattle]

Saw your follow up answers after I made my earlier post.

Well, since you don't trust him now nor have any more respect since becoming disillusioned, just leave and go train elsewhere. You'll feel better and your money can be put to more use at a higher quality and more friendly school.

- Ceicei

There's nothing else around here that doesn't require years of forms and doesn't teach much practical apps besides MMA which I already started taking.

I guess I'm a bit disappointed with martial arts in general. After taking karate for years and not getting a lot of practical apps, and this happening, and MMA being so basic and relying so much upon muscle strength rather than technique, I think I might just quit entirely.

Anyways, thanks for the comments. I think I need to get back to my bottle of wine now.

 

[LOHAN]

Hi;
I am new!
I remeber a Tae kwon do teacher I had!

He was realy good!He broke bricks & fast!
His actions & forms came from a book!

Back in the early days--Lots trained this way!
They did not have other teachers!

They did not have films or videos!

Even today--I see Tae kwon do schools looking at the forms on the wall!
Each move is there & be it black belt or white!
They use the forms as per the wall!Or manuals!

Now here is the big differance!
When it came to tournements!

Ranks--testing--uniforms did not match the ATF or ITF ect!
They tend to adopt some motions to how they saw fit!

This does not make them wrong--as the arts go threw change!
I see 3 things that should be in the arts!

Can you use it in defence?
Can you pass it on & have a good system?
Are you acheiving health-defence-spirit ballance-honor ect?

That to me would be good---untill better could be found!

Look at it like a job!
The job might not pay good!
The job might be long hours!

It does pay rent ect!
It does give some spending cash!

It would be better then no job & keep it till better is found!

This is just me thinking out loud!
I dont except it to be more then that!

So please do not see it more then a thought!

 

[lostinseattle]

Lying is actually okay to the Chinese. It is not considered a breach of ethics.

So learning off of a book or video and teaching for money is okay to them, especially if it is to lao guai.

Not so different from Enron or the corporate rip-off ethic whereby they enrich themselves at the expense of others. It is fine to them as long as they make money for themselves.

Oh, well.

 

[jdinca]

I would walk in, look him in the eye, drop the videos on his desk and walk out.

I can't abide by liars, especially when they're my teacher.

 

[lostinseattle]

I would walk in, look him in the eye, drop the videos on his desk and walk out.

I can't abide by liars, especially when they're my teacher.

There's really nothing I can do at this point. I confront him, he'll just say that they must have stolen his martial arts (he's used this in the past), and if I warn anyone else about him I could get sued for slander or whatever.

The ironic thing about all of this is that he couldn't get the DVD player working on his computer, so I helped him fix it, because he was my teacher. He didn't have a DVD player for his T.V., and he watched DVDs and VCDs on the computer.

This was coincidentally a few weeks before he started teaching me this 'form.'

There's an old saying "No good deed goes unpunished." I guess that applies here.

 

[LOHAN]

Could it be---I am just guessing here!
Could it be that what he knows--He dose not feel secure!

Hence the video has demos that look good--persay!
So he did add to his art!

Look at JKD Concpts!
Bruce Lee did not do savate--thai boxing--ufc grapple--ect!

The concepts added to keep the art fresh if you will!
I know Modern Arnis added lots as it grew!

These adding became a great adventure!

 

[lostinseattle]

Could it be---I am just guessing here!
Could it be that what he knows--He dose not feel secure!

Hence the video has demos that look good--persay!
So he did add to his art!

Look at JKD Concpts!
Bruce Lee did not do savate--thai boxing--ufc grapple--ect!

The concepts added to keep the art fresh if you will!
I know Modern Arnis added lots as it grew!

These adding became a great adventure!

Yeah, but if you're taking a certain MA and paying for that MA, then I would expect to be taught that MA.

It was a pain paying for privates with this guy and not having other people to train with, but I went along with it because he was the only person who taught this particular lineage in the U.S.

So for him to do this is just taking $ away from me -- serious stealing going on.

At any rate, I'm done with him. I'm not going to return his calls, or challenge him about it or anything.

Hung Gar partner forms are useless anyway unless you study all their forms because no teacher will want you training with their students unless you spent years studying their forms and without a training partner you might as well forget it.

 

[terryl965]

I still say sit down and talk to hin about your feeling and get his response instead of ours we can only guess and he can give you his version

 

[lostinseattle]

I still say sit down and talk to hin about your feeling and get his response instead of ours we can only guess and he can give you his version

Yeah, I'd talk to him about it but last time I tried to talk to him about stuff, like I said, he lost it and started throwing practice swords around the room. I guess I should have walked out at that point.

At some point stuff happens with most teachers that would make a person quit, and I was kindof tired of quitting MAs, so I didn't quit even though he lost it the way he did.

Stupid me.

 

[tellner]

What are you looking for in your martial arts? If you can't find it in Seattle there's a good chance that it doesn't exist

You don't trust him. That makes learning in that school pretty much impossible. Figure out what you want to accomplish. Look around for a school that will help you in that direction.

 

[lostinseattle]

What are you looking for in your martial arts? If you can't find it in Seattle there's a good chance that it doesn't exist

You don't trust him. That makes learning in that school pretty much impossible. Figure out what you want to accomplish. Look around for a school that will help you in that direction.

I've looked all over Seattle. Seattle is kindof a martial arts wasteland. There's a lot of things here but little of it is very good. Good meaning hands on, applications oriented, without a lot of time wasted on forms, taught by experienced people and teaching realistic apps.

Most of it like karate, Hung Gar, TKD, etc., requires a ton of forms and doesn't do much with applications. The karate and TKD only does watered down bunkai anyway from what I've come across.

In terms of CMA, there's no decent Xingyiquan. There's no decent taijiquan that teaches the martial applications and drills them extensively. There's no decent baguazhang. (There's one teacher with a great reputation -- Andy Dale but if you look at any of his clips on www.wuji.com, you'll see he doesn't have any force to his movements at all).

JKD and derivatives are a total waste of time around here. Watered down kali and judo along with that particular teacher's interpretation of 'JKD' which is a mess of things, mostly watered down wing chun.

Kenpo is a total waste of time around here. There's a ton of former Temple Kung Fu schools, USSDs, all of that, but most of the instructors seem to have not a lot of experience, and Temple Kung Fu is a waste of time.

What else ... there is some decent Judo here, but I got tired of getting thrown from heights, so I quit that.

Other than judo, the only decent stuff around Seattle seems to be MMA and I'm enrolled in that now.

 

[LOHAN]

It seems you know the back rounds of many arts!

This is good!

Now if you can take that multi thinking to say a level of multi self exploring!

I know it's hard!

Bruce Lee was rare & did it!

There are others as well!

I see no one can meet you demands as they are high!

This is great!
How can you have a goal if it is easy to reach? It must be high!

Hard work gets great results!

You can also find one that you can travel (commute) to that may not be close!

How ever it may be what is needed!

Even though with jobs have to commute to other palces some times!

Keep up the hard work & goals high!
It can pay off!