Taekwondo Helmet vs Boxing/MMA Helmet

[JowGaWolf]

Most of those kicks that you're presenting wouldn't score in Taekwondo. You have to hit the chestguard to score. If you're aiming at the bicep, it won't score.

Then use a different kick to score, unless you can only score by using one type of kick or by kicking elbows.

Do you also go to wrestling matches and criticize them because they don't punch enough?

I'm not criticizing TKD. I'm telling how not to kick elbows.

Please do me a favor and open a Taekwondo school where you teach people that kicking the arm is more valuable than scoring points. I'd love to go up against such a school in tournaments.

How about I open a Taekwondo school and teach students how not to kick elbows.

 

[skribs]

How about I open a Taekwondo school and teach students how not to kick elbows.

If you do so with the videos you posted, then they would not be scoring kicks. So yes, please do. That was my point.

I'm not criticizing TKD. I'm telling how not to kick elbows.

I didn't suggest you criticize wrestling, I suggested you criticize the wrestlers. Which is what you're doing here is criticizing me. Except your advice is bad because you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the sport of Taekwondo.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Which is what you're doing here is criticizing me.

I haven't said anything about you. The only thing I've criticized is the kick. Truth: If you kick upwards to the elbow then you are going to greatly increase the risk of hitting the elbow. No matter what martial arts anyone does, this is universal. This is not about you. It's about kicking in a way that increases the risk of kicking the elbow. If a person kicks the elbow so often that they wish their sparring partner had elbow pads. Then the kicker needs to take a look at how they are kicking. Are they not timing the kick? Are they kicking at the wrong angle? Are they trying to force a kick in vs setting a kick up? No matter what martial arts a person does, these are things that everyone needs to think about if someone's technique is not landing where and when it should land.

Except your advice is bad because you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the sport of Taekwondo.

It's got nothing to do with TKD. You either kick elbows or you don't. Round house kicks are not specific to TKD. Diagonal kicks are not specific to TKD. Kicking elbows is not specific to TKD.

My advice is good if people don't want to kick elbows. I don't kick elbows and I haven't kicked one in a very long time. So any advice that I give on how not to kick elbows comes from my personal experience on doing kicks and my success on not kicking elbows.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Makes no sense to me to do a kick where the kick lands on the elbow so often that your sparring partner has to wear elbow pads to protect the kicker from kicking the elbows. Makes more sense to just not use a kick that frequently lands on the hard part of the elbow.

It any kick that targets the mid section of the body should be done when the opponent is less likely to drop their elbows so that means the kicker must use the kick at the right time. The kicker must set up the kick vs just kicking and hoping it lands.


Just because it's just not you, doesn't mean that what I'm telling you is invalid. I could do the same thing. "Just not me" because other people are teaching it the same way that I'm telling you "Don't kick upward into the elbows." "Kick to the outside of guard. Why would you try to sneak a kick under the arm with a fighter who fights with elbows down. So it's not just me either.

The natural response to an incoming kick for most people is to tighten up and bring the arms closer to the body and not open up.

If a person fights with arms close to the body then kick the arm. If person likes to end their guard then kick the body. If person's guard is close to the body then make him move his guard away from the body. This is the most efficient way to attack the body. Anything less is just going to be ineffective and you'll just end up kicking bone.

These are pretty good videos. This is why you have to practice this controlled without shin guards, to gain precision.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Makes no sense to me to do a kick where the kick lands on the elbow so often that your sparring partner has to wear elbow pads to protect the kicker from kicking the elbows. Makes more sense to just not use a kick that frequently lands on the hard part of the elbow.

It any kick that targets the mid section of the body should be done when the opponent is less likely to drop their elbows so that means the kicker must use the kick at the right time. The kicker must set up the kick vs just kicking and hoping it lands.


Just because it's just not you, doesn't mean that what I'm telling you is invalid. I could do the same thing. "Just not me" because other people are teaching it the same way that I'm telling you "Don't kick upward into the elbows." "Kick to the outside of guard. Why would you try to sneak a kick under the arm with a fighter who fights with elbows down. So it's not just me either.

The natural response to an incoming kick for most people is to tighten up and bring the arms closer to the body and not open up.

If a person fights with arms close to the body then kick the arm. If person likes to end their guard then kick the body. If person's guard is close to the body then make him move his guard away from the body. This is the most efficient way to attack the body. Anything less is just going to be ineffective and you'll just end up kicking bone.

I broke my big toe when I was 18 years old in a TKD match. The guy was very intentionally blocking with his elbows. If I would have know this and practiced it, I probably could have avoided that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

These are pretty good videos. This is why you have to practice this controlled without shin guards, to gain precision.

I agree. Sometimes pain let's us know we are doing something incorrectly or that we should stop what we are doing. Pads block pain or reduces the pain. As a result, we don't make beneficial adjustments.

Because there is no pain we think we are doing things corr onectly, which means that we aren't improving accuracy. I like your method. Control + a little pain = better precision + timing + set up.

If students acknowledge when they kick the elbow with shin guards on, then they will improve their kick accuracy etc. But from my training most don't. My sparring partner was like that and I took offense so I kicked a little harder so now he acknowledges when the soft kicks land. But it was the discomfort from the kick that made him change his way.

I have a bad habit with blocking front kicks. However, I know that going in and I actively make adjustments so that I reduce the risk of going bone vs bone or shun vs finger. I know how not to do it, pain made that clear.
Pain also forced me to think outside the box which improved my technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I broke my big toe when I was 18 years old in a TKD match. The guy was very intentionally blocking with his elbows. If I would have know this and practiced it, I probably could have avoided that.

Sounds like he was using his elbows as strike. Was he dropping the elbow down into your kick??

 

[Jared Traveler]

Sounds like he was using his elbows as strike. Was he dropping the elbow down into your kick??

Yes he was!

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you do so with the videos you posted, then they would not be scoring kicks. So yes, please do. That was my point.

There's more than one way to kick and score, so they would be fine and happy to not kick elbows.

 

[Jared Traveler]

If you do so with the videos you posted, then they would not be scoring kicks. So yes, please do. That was my point.


I didn't suggest you criticize wrestling, I suggested you criticize the wrestlers. Which is what you're doing here is criticizing me. Except your advice is bad because you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to the sport of Taekwondo.

Can't you double kick in TKD? Kick the arms to get them to defend high, then put the second kick under the elbows for a score once on the second kick? Taking a damaging kick to the arms would likely get their arms up higher to block a second kick that actually comes lower.

That would protect your foot/shin, be combat affective, damage a real opponent with safety for you in mind and win at the game. It certainly works in Muay Thai.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes he was!

Dirty fighting in competition. How many points do they take away for "accidentally" kicking someone in the groin? lol He would have stopped then lol.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Dirty fighting in competition. How many points do they take away for "accidentally" kicking someone in the groin? lol He would have stopped then lol.

He was 20 years old, which was "old" to me at that time. But we were just kids. It was more of a panic response on his part I think, not nefarious.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kicking upward toward the elbow. We can see by the angle of the kicking foot and the kicking leg that the kick isn't going into the body, but into the elbow. I didn't see this much from the female student but I saw a lot of this from the male students that were sparring. One sparring partner seemed to be doing these kicks that go straight into the elbow,

Same students seconds later, You can see the angle of his kicking leg. This the angle of my leg when I do front kicks. In the picture below, he was doing what skribs would consider a "diagonal kick" look at the elbow and where the leg is.

(full video

).

 

[JowGaWolf]

He was 20 years old, which was "old" to me at that time. But we were just kids. It was more of a panic response on his part I think, not nefarious.

It could have been that natural response of tightening up then. When people get attack they tend to draw inward so elbows come closer to the body. Learning how to fight tends to have us learn how to do the opposite so that we can grab and counter vs. turtle.

One thing that amazes me about panic fighters is how much I don't like to spar against them because I know they will do a panic move and I'll catch it right in the face lol.

 

[HighKick]

View attachment 29597View attachment 29598

The helmet on the left is what's been used in Taekwondo in my experience, both for sparring and competition. The helmet on the right is more typical of sparring in boxing or MMA, but is not used in competition.

I've used both, and personally prefer the MMA helmet. However, I wanted to see what others think about the two. I'm open to data showing the safety of one over the other, or personal anecdotes of where one style of helmet failed or succeeded, and the other would likely have succeeded or failed, respectively.

Taekwondo Helmet
The TKD helmet is often cheaper than an MMA helmet. Aside from name brands, you're probably looking at $10-$20 for a helmet. They offer great protection on the ears and on the sides of the head. There's also pretty good peripheral vision and breathability. The ear protection is also a good spot to store your mouthguard during rest periods. The chin strap means it is quick and easy to take on and off.

There's also the logistics that this is likely the helmet required for tournaments, and so having this helmet and having trained in this helmet would prepare students for tournaments.

However, I feel the protection on the face is lacking. There's a ton of wasted padding on top and on the back, areas where the skull already provides protection, and areas where you're not as likely to be hit in Taekwondo sparring. The helmets are sized and fit by the chin strap, which means sometimes they're not a great fit.

Boxing/MMA Helmet
You can find boxing or MMA helmets in the same price range as a TKD helmet, but most are going to run you more. In my experience, the padding is much thinner than a Taekwondo helmet. However, more expensive boxing helmets appear to offer more padding. Peripheral vision is obviously worse.

However, these helmets have more adjustments and are a better fit once sized. They cover much more of the cheek and jaw, and some even cover the chin. I don't know if the thickness of padding matters too much, since a helmet isn't going to do much to prevent concussions. So I would prefer coverage over thickness. And students can always get a thicker, more expensive piece of headgear if they choose (I would not want to require this unless absolutely important).

As a hopeful future school owner, I will be responsible for setting the requirements for sparring gear. I can pick one or the other, or I can simply mandate that "padded headgear" be used and leave it up to the student. I believe the MMA helmet to be safer and would lean towards requiring that. Since both can be bought for cheap, I would not feel like I am gatekeeping by doing so. Similarly, if we do need specific gear for a tournament, it's not very expensive to get tournament-approved gear.

Thoughts?

Very different rulesets drive much of the design. Olympic style TKD allows kicks all the way to the back of the head, so greater peripheral vision is very important. A spinning kick to the back of the head is allowed. Axe kicks frequently hit the top of the head or the band on the forehead. Punches to the face are not allowed so front protection is sacrificed in lieu of greater vision.
A boxing/MMA helmet sacrifices peripheral vision for greater face protection.
To my knowledge, no headgear meets the ASTM impact standards. While I cannot imagine sparring hard or competing without headgear, the testing does not lie. This is a great read about headgear: ASTM Testing
FWIW, I firmly believe correct fit makes a world of difference in headgear.

 

[HighKick]

Based on the best available research I've seen, headgear of either sort doesn't actually do much of anything to prevent concussions, although it does help avoid cuts and contusions. The main advantage I could see is for TKD sparring on hardwood floors - it could prevent injury if someone falls during a kick and hits their head. For that purpose, either type would work.

"do much" may be a little too strong for me. Legal foam headgear gets very close to the ASTM standard so, by my reconning, it has a good amount of value versus nothing at all. Check out the link I posted to the OP.
The slippery slope is when contact is not controlled. People tend to go harder when geared up.