Tactical Reload?

[Tgace]

Check this article on the "Tactical Reload"...opinions?

http://rrmemphis.com/op017.html

It is critically important to note that there has never been a single recorded instance in which a tactical reload made the difference in a law enforcement or private citizen lethal force encounter. In other words, there has never been a case in which someone (a) performed a tac load and then (b) needed those saved rounds to win the fight. A skill with no practical value and no real-world application should not be considered a staple of tactical training!

I found this part very interesting. Especially as my dept. has been training the tac reload for a while now.

 

[Tgace]

Personally, even though Ive been trained to tac reload "during the lull" in the fight, during simunition training I only seem reload after it looked apparent that all threats had been neutralized. So what this guy says carries some weight.

Now to not train/practice it at all...I wouldnt go that far. But perhaps it is a solution in search of a problem.

 

[Cruentus]

Hmmm...I am not sure how I feel about this. I dislike "absolutes," like you will NEVER need the extra rounds from a tactical reload, and that we should all just speed reload and call it a day.

The statement Tom quoted here holds some truth, but it is misleading as well. I agree that I wouldn't consider the tactical reload a "staple of tactical training" because it would seem to me that even for a cop, I'd say the probability is low that you'll shoot all your rounds in one clip anyways. This is unless your in a S.W.A.T. unit or in some type of unit where you would use more rounds then your clip could carry, in which case you would probably be prepared with enough ammo to do a speed reload anyways.

So, I wouldn't consider it a "staple," but I wouldn't consider it "useless" either. Although not likely, one may be in a rare circumstance where one needs more then one clip, but one needs AS MUCH ammo as they've got. If I am a civilian with a compact concealed pistol and 2 8-round clips with more then one armed attacker to take care of, I may need all 16 total rounds; so the speed reload, leaving extra rounds on the ground, would be a tactical no-no in that situation.

I am curious what others opinions are on this myself...

Paul

 

[Tgace]

You gotta think though...only about 20 or less years ago, my dept. was carrying .357 magnum revolvers. Lets see 6 in the gun, maybe 2 speed loaders and if you were serious another 6 in a strip loader on belt or in pocket. Total of 24 rounds with 3 reloads to expend all rounds. I can crank out 46 in 2 reloads. You would only want to crack open your cylinder and top off if you were damn sure there wasnt another BG around.

If I thought I had fired over 1/2 my magazine in the initial exchange I may tac reload..if I thought of it. If I knew I only fired 3-6 rounds, I wouldnt want to divert my attention by fumbling with my magazines. It would suck to have a BG pop up with one in the pipe and no magazine in....would it be worth the risk for those 3-6 rounds??

I agree though...to say to not train it at all is extreme.

 

[dearnis.com]

We train both; I think as the author suggests a tac reload is most appropriate to single-stack lower capacity weapons. Since I share the 46 round load-out I am not as concerned about it in practical terms; I don't expect to run through the first 16. (not that it couldn't happen, not that I don't train for it, just a comment based on what I expect).
It is probably worth noting that the author is (or was) the head of Beretta's LE operations and there may be a bit of an ax to grind against Jeff Cooper given his (at times) harsh criticism of Beretta's poducts.

 

[TonyM.]

I agree. Tactical reloading is unnesessary. Worst case scenario you should always have a backup anyway. Most 1911's can be forced to fire even with broken parts so I don't worry about that.

 

[Grape Ape]

Both are useful skills (that you will probably never need if you remember the front sight) but I think that there is a third way that deserves consideration, a hybrid reload. Do a speed reload and if things are still cool when you're done, you can crouch down and grab the partial mag that can’t have gone far. This minimizes the time spent with a one/zero (S&W autos, Browning HP, etc.) shot gun and if the partial is lost/broken your no worse of than you were with a speed reload…



[font=&quot]BTW: If you do train tactical reloads, try putting the partial mag in you pouch facing the wrong way so that you will instinctively know which one is full and which is not.[/font]

 

[Jason L]

Here is another article on the subject. Interesting.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/treload_061604/

Jason

 

[punisher73]

Our dept. practices both a "combat" reload and a "tactical" reload. In the combat reload you are either empty or darn sure you are almost empty and you just reload as fast as possible and don't worry about the almost empty or empty magazine. The tactical reload was presented as a situation where you had good cover and could afford to put the partial magazine somewhere on your person without endangering yourself in the process.

It's interesting that there isn't one documented case where an officer has used it to survive a situation though.

 

[arnisandyz]

Bringing an old post back to life!

In IDPA we are required to do a tactical reload or reload with retention if we still have rounds in the Magazine. If we go to slidelock we can drop it. Most of the reloads are done behind cover, so you have the time to retain your mag.

In IPSC we can drop it whenever we want. Focus is on speed. We always carry 2 or 3 MORE mags than what we feel we will need.

I the real world its a judgement call but you should be able to do one or the other without thinking.

 

[dearnis.com]

A lot of it is common sense really. In the (Statistically) average encounter the shooter will shoot until the threat is stopped- eg shoot to the ground or to slide lock. The typical self-defense, or for that matter LEO, shoot is not the typical IDPA/IPSC/cowboy action/training course of your choice/simunition scenario. Training should, regardless of the tool, take into account worst-case situations.
Is the Tac reload needed in most shootings- no, and it isn't used. BUT... if you have engaged and defeated a hostile target, and you know the action is likely to continue, why wouldn't you take advantage of a lull in the action to top-off/replenish the ammo supply in the weapon before moving on? Common sense.
That said, how many honestly include even one reload with their usual carry weapon?

 

[KenpoTex]

I guess my take on the tactical vs. speed reload thing is that while I don't think a situation requiring the tac. load is likely, never say "never." As has been mentioned, in the days when the revolver was king, or for those who carry a single-stack, it might have some merit. However since most people, LEO and civilian alike are carrying Glocks, SIG's, or other hi-cap weapons I don't think there's as much chance that you'd need to retain rounds.
Here's a pretty neat photo sequence courtesy of SouthNarc over at Total Protection Interactive on auto reloads (you have to register but it's worth it, there's a lot of good stuff).
After seeing this it made a lot of sense to me so I started training this method. There are many things I like about this method in general (the indexing and so on) a couple specifically (as mentioned in the captions for the pictures) are:
1) physically removing the spent mag helps prepare you for malfunction drills since you're used to the movements.
2) you're able to either drop the mag, or shove it in your pocket/waistband if needed. Incidently, I like this better than trying to manipulate two mags in the same hand. Single stack mags are one thing, trying to fiddle with a pair of fat, glock mags is a pain.

That said, how many honestly include even one reload with their usual carry weapon?

I do...total loadout of 31 rounds.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Check this article on the "Tactical Reload"...opinions?

http://rrmemphis.com/op017.html


I found this part very interesting. Especially as my dept. has been training the tac reload for a while now.

Yeah, our department qualified recently, and i was annoyed by the 'tactical reload' save your ammo training. This comes directly from Practical shooting, where you lose points if you end with out enough rounds, but you lose points also by having to reload at the wrong place. So they teach tactical reloads to maximize speed on certain sections of the course, while keeping the rounds to end with.

It's a prime example of life now imitating a 'practical' sport, instead of the way it was intended, the other way around.

I've spent my entire career practicing changing magazines when the slide locks back. I can do this faster, and far more effectively than I can take a magazine out and stick it in my pocket. Let the mags hit the ground and reload.

 

[Cruentus]

Yeah, our department qualified recently, and i was annoyed by the 'tactical reload' save your ammo training. This comes directly from Practical shooting, where you lose points if you end with out enough rounds, but you lose points also by having to reload at the wrong place. So they teach tactical reloads to maximize speed on certain sections of the course, while keeping the rounds to end with.

It's a prime example of life now imitating a 'practical' sport, instead of the way it was intended, the other way around.

I've spent my entire career practicing changing magazines when the slide locks back. I can do this faster, and far more effectively than I can take a magazine out and stick it in my pocket. Let the mags hit the ground and reload.

I am more on the side of this arguement as well. The more experience I get, the less I see a need for it.

Paul

 

[arnisandyz]

I'm not LEO, just shoot the practical games for the fun of it and to stay sharp on my carry gun, but can you please expand on how shooting to slide-lock is better than topping off your mag (whether it be with retention or not)? For example, you dump half your rounds at a BG before he dodges into a warehouse. Are you going to enter the building with half a mag or do a mag change while under cover before entering? From reading your post it sounds like you're advocating changing the mag only after the gun tells you to do so?

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm not LEO, just shoot the practical games for the fun of it and to stay sharp on my carry gun, but can you please expand on how shooting to slide-lock is better than topping off your mag (whether it be with retention or not)? For example, you dump half your rounds at a BG before he dodges into a warehouse. Are you going to enter the building with half a mag or do a mag change while under cover before entering? From reading your post it sounds like you're advocating changing the mag only after the gun tells you to do so?

Sure....I can respond to that. You make some good points, but here's my experience.

Most gun fights occur in the real world at extreme close range. FBI statistics show that 90% of law enforcement shootings occur at 10 ft or less, 50% at 5 ft or less. At those ranges, there's no need for a 'tactical reload'. In fact, the common response is to shoot the gun dry, most of the time without even being aware you fired that many shots. In fact, the common response at the end of such scenarios is for the officer to claim they fired one or two shots. Many officers believe the gun malfunctioned after two shots, because the slide locked back, not realizing until later that it locked back because it's empty.

As that is the natural reaction anyway, it's futile, and even counter-productive to teach the 'tactical reload' as if it is a realistic response to a real world shooting scenario. Back in the 1960s and 1970s officers were being found with their empty brass in their pockets after shootings. What we found out was that officers were being taught on the range to pocket empty brass when they emptied their revolvers for the reload, before reloading, to keep the range tidy. When we started teaching 'let the brass/magazine drop to the ground' we started seeing less officers killed trying to reload their firearms.

In short, in situations where officers usually are involved in shooting, the tactical reload is not used. We are better spend teaching them how to respond to a slide that is locked back as a result of inevitably shooting the gun dry.

In those odd scenarios where you 'pursue a suspect in to a building' you are reloading in the lull of an action, not in the middle of shooting, and have time to conciously do a 'tactical reload' so it doesn't need to be stress-trained. That is why we don't train the tactical reload, because training it will get the officer killed in the most likely shooting scenarios, and if it might be needed, an officer can do it in the lull of combat anyway, as this doesn't require a conditioned response on the same level as reloading in the middle of shooting.

I enjoy pratical shooting, so i'm not putting down practical shooting. I just think it's important to understand that practical shooting is supposed to imitate the real world, not the other way around.

In other words, i feel the tactical reload is a solution to a non-existent problem. I know of no law enforcement officer in recent years to die because he ran out of ammo. However, taking to long to reload is another issue. I carry 15+1 in my duty Glock 22. I also carry 2 15 round magazines. That's 46 rounds total.

The odd's that the 4 or 6 extra rounds, if I do drop my magazine prematurely, will make a difference is extremely low, and quite frankly, not worth the odd's of teaching a technique that will, in all likelyhood, slow me down in the most likely shooting scenarios I may face.

To sum up.....Officers most likely shoot the gun dry, as a natural stress response. Shootings take place at extreme close ranges. Shot placement, and making the first shot count are the most important strategies.


One final note....If you're chasing a bad guy who you've exchanged gunfire with in to a warehouse....You're better off spending the time you have retrieving a long-gun from the patrol car. A handgun is a defensive weapon. If i'm chasing a known armed offender, who's already shot at me, i'm grabbing something more....offensive.

That's just my respectful opinon.

 

[arnisandyz]

Thanks for your reply sgtmac!

I shoot IDPA, they require to retain a mag if it still has ammo in it, however, when we change mags we are always behind cover, we have never enganged at 5 ft do a mag change in the open and re-engage but if the course designer isn't careful I can see how it could engrain bad habits.

When I shoot IPSC they drop to the floor because the rules allow me to. In the end these shooting games are just that, games. You play within thier rules and have fun. To me, IDPA is a little more practical, drawing from a concealment holster from a cover garment, using cover, etc. For the most part I use my regular IWB carry and a T-shirt, what I would normally wear.

I'm of the opinion that that Tac-reload in itself isn't bad, but like anything else, there is a right or wrong time to do it. If your at 5 feet away in the middle of a fire-fight it would be stupid to to a tac-reload. I understand you want to train officers to the lowest common denominator, but for the ones that "get it" there is opportunity to expand knowledge. Look at Martial Arts, I teach Filipino Arts, many, many flow drills and techniques, etc, but when it comes down to it, and really need to hit somebody, things get simple very fast.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I look at tac reloads like I do spinning crescent kicks. Probably never use it in a real fight but hey ya never know. That being said I wouldnt make tac reloads a staple of training because I dont want to wind up doing one on auto pilot if I ever wind up in a real gunfight. Its one of those good to know how to do if you have a moment to stop and think about it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thanks for your reply sgtmac!

I shoot IDPA, they require to retain a mag if it still has ammo in it, however, when we change mags we are always behind cover, we have never enganged at 5 ft do a mag change in the open and re-engage but if the course designer isn't careful I can see how it could engrain bad habits.

When I shoot IPSC they drop to the floor because the rules allow me to. In the end these shooting games are just that, games. You play within thier rules and have fun. To me, IDPA is a little more practical, drawing from a concealment holster from a cover garment, using cover, etc. For the most part I use my regular IWB carry and a T-shirt, what I would normally wear.

I'm of the opinion that that Tac-reload in itself isn't bad, but like anything else, there is a right or wrong time to do it. If your at 5 feet away in the middle of a fire-fight it would be stupid to to a tac-reload. I understand you want to train officers to the lowest common denominator, but for the ones that "get it" there is opportunity to expand knowledge. Look at Martial Arts, I teach Filipino Arts, many, many flow drills and techniques, etc, but when it comes down to it, and really need to hit somebody, things get simple very fast.

I agree whole-heartedly. :asian: