Stinging hands

[geezer]

In my lineage, WT, one of our principal goals is to make our hands, body and even our stance "springy" and elastic. As people begin to get pretty good, this elasticiy allows them to more effectively yield and absorb an attack and then spring back forward when the attack is dissolved. The analogy oftern used is to become flexible and springy like a piece of rattan or bamboo. It bends when pressed, then snaps out when released.

Well, my training partner is really beginning to get it down. Last night he was on top of his game. I not only couldn't touch him in chi sau, but almost every time he touched me it hurt! I don't mean the strikes either. He controlled those quite nicely. I mean every little pak-sau and grab stung like being snapped with a piece of rubber tubing. My hands were heavy and slow by contrast. A couple of times, when we broke for a moment, I had to stop and rub my arms. I had visible red marks... figerprints in one case... on my forearms and wrists. It hurt, but I really had to complement him on what I call his "stinging hands". I've experienced it before, but only with very high level Sifus of "master" grade. Now, if I can only lighten up and get to that level myself.

How about you guys... have you encountered this sort of "stinging hands" sensation?

 

[CuongNhuka]

In my lineage, WT, one of our principal goals is to make our hands, body and even our stance "springy" and elastic. As people begin to get pretty good, this elasticiy allows them to more effectively yield and absorb an attack and then spring back forward when the attack is dissolved. The analogy oftern used is to become flexible and springy like a piece of rattan or bamboo. It bends when pressed, then snaps out when released.

Well, my training partner is really beginning to get it down. Last night he was on top of his game. I not only couldn't touch him in chi sau, but almost every time he touched me it hurt! I don't mean the strikes either. He controlled those quite nicely. I mean every little pak-sau and grab stung like being snapped with a piece of rubber tubing. My hands were heavy and slow by contrast. A couple of times, when we broke for a moment, I had to stop and rub my arms. I had visible red marks... figerprints in one case... on my forearms and wrists. It hurt, but I really had to complement him on what I call his "stinging hands". I've experienced it before, but only with very high level Sifus of "master" grade. Now, if I can only lighten up and get to that level myself.

How about you guys... have you encountered this sort of "stinging hands" sensation?

I get it sometimes. I've been told I give it out alot though. When we do sparring (not chi sao, but sparring), I get told that my thigh-level kicks always sting. the trick seems to be to retract faster then when you throw out the technique

 

[dnovice]

almost every time he touched me it hurt! I don't mean the strikes either. He controlled those quite nicely. I mean every little pak-sau and grab stung like being snapped with a piece of rubber tubing.

his grabs hurt????

My hands were heavy and slow by contrast. A couple of times, when we broke for a moment, I had to stop and rub my arms. I had visible red marks... figerprints in one case... on my forearms and wrists. It hurt, but I really had to complement him on what I call his "stinging hands". I've experienced it before, but only with very high level Sifus of "master" grade. Now, if I can only lighten up and get to that level myself.

Is he slapping your hand with intent??? I don't think i know what you're referring to??

How about you guys... have you encountered this sort of "stinging hands" sensation?

No clue what you are talking about. Can you explain how he paks. Is it a quick snap back pak... is it a quick and pak with intent...

Paks should hurt, kind of like an defense thing. But i'm assuming you're refering to something different.

 

[mook jong man]

Yes I have experienced that before and I am starting to be able to do it a bit myself. I remember one of my instructors had a certain heavyness in his arms and would actually leave fingerprints on your ribcage with his palm strikes.

It all comes down to relaxation , they can relax their muscles so that their arms are heavy and relaxed and capable of whip like speed .

They can relax to such a degree that any movement they do can be done with extreme acceleration so that even a Pak Sau will feel as though it is some type of limb destruction.

 

[geezer]

It all comes down to relaxation , they can relax their muscles so that their arms are heavy and relaxed and capable of whip like speed .

They can relax to such a degree that any movement they do can be done with extreme acceleration so that even a Pak Sau will feel as though it is some type of limb destruction.

Mook, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And when their pak or similar technique makes contact, it feels like you just got smacked hard with what my grandad used to call "the dead-fish slap" ...soft, heavy and it stings like hell. It also happens with short grabs and jerks. The force or acceleration of their grab is so sharp. My si-dais keep telling me to dump the weight training and that I'd get this relaxed "jing-like" power (I think that's what the internal stylists call that kind of energy) a lot faster. But I'm a stubborn old guy. Hmmmm... maybe that's why even though I'm their si-hing, they have more skill?!? Or more likely because I quit training for about 15 years. Speaking of which...it's time to get back to it. Later.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Mook, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And when their pak or similar technique makes contact, it feels like you just got smacked hard with what my grandad used to call "the dead-fish slap" ...soft, heavy and it stings like hell. It also happens with short grabs and jerks. The force or acceleration of their grab is so sharp. My si-dais keep telling me to dump the weight training and that I'd get this relaxed "jing-like" power (I think that's what the internal stylists call that kind of energy) a lot faster. But I'm a stubborn old guy. Hmmmm... maybe that's why even though I'm their si-hing, they have more skill?!? Or more likely because I quit training for about 15 years. Speaking of which...it's time to get back to it. Later.

Like I said, some of it seems to be snapping back faster then you extend.

 

[qwksilver61]

Absolutely,if you carefully read some of my previous posts,I make reference to this very thing! Absolutely stay relaxed,force without the big surge (no tension)
GGM Leung Ting,Sifu Emin Boztepe all preach relax while delivering technique! Practice....practice! (notice there is a little room for travel when the arm is fully extended,I guess the best way to describe this is a tuning fork) Love the posts by the way...great stuff! Like was said to me before,no weights,I don't lift and have the chest of a weight lifter ( not bound up) as a result of repetitious chain punching,also my arms and legs feel like loaded coils.anybody else? Two cents

 

[profesormental]

Yep. That means it is being done right!

After being subjected to this for a while, your forearms become steel beams! Much fun!!

As to how it is done, it is a mix of Intent, Mental Focus, Relaxation, Optimized Execution and the hardest part is throwing away and letting go of the fear and apprehension to hit someone. Just hit them. They can take it!

You'll be surprised of how much people hold back because they unconsciously can't get over the fact they're hitting someone... it really takes away a LOT of power and effectiveness when striking.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[futsaowingchun]

In my lineage, WT, one of our principal goals is to make our hands, body and even our stance "springy" and elastic. As people begin to get pretty good, this elasticiy allows them to more effectively yield and absorb an attack and then spring back forward when the attack is dissolved. The analogy oftern used is to become flexible and springy like a piece of rattan or bamboo. It bends when pressed, then snaps out when released.

Well, my training partner is really beginning to get it down. Last night he was on top of his game. I not only couldn't touch him in chi sau, but almost every time he touched me it hurt! I don't mean the strikes either. He controlled those quite nicely. I mean every little pak-sau and grab stung like being snapped with a piece of rubber tubing. My hands were heavy and slow by contrast. A couple of times, when we broke for a moment, I had to stop and rub my arms. I had visible red marks... figerprints in one case... on my forearms and wrists. It hurt, but I really had to complement him on what I call his "stinging hands". I've experienced it before, but only with very high level Sifus of "master" grade. Now, if I can only lighten up and get to that level myself.

How about you guys... have you encountered this sort of "stinging hands" sensation?

Sure,I felt this many times. the more power you use the more pain you'll feel in your bridge.If you just relax and have a soft bridge when he goes to slap or what ever it won't have any effect on you. Just pretend your arm is not there.When he paks you your arm will move from his force and when he does that you can simple hit him with the same hand.Which is like a rebond effect of his force.

 

[dnovice]

pak sao is not just a block it's a slap that should make your opponent hesitate to bring out his hand again. Now like I said before idont understand what u mean by his grabs hurt. You have to explain how he does it so we can visualize and help you replicate this.

My sparring partners always tell my paks are good while holding their forearms. What I do is I don't hold back when comes to arms. Your partner won't get hurt.

 

[geezer]

...like I said before idont understand what u mean by his grabs hurt...

Dnovice, I focused on describing the "sting" with pak sau because it's easier to describe and visualize. Other movements are tougher to put into words. For one thing, the names and applications of many other techniques vary a lot between the different branches of the Wing Chun family... but I'll give it a try.

In WT we often do an attack in chi-sau, starting by circling our left fook-sau to the inside gate (a kau-sau movement) while simultaneously grabbing across from the right bong sau, catching our opponent's right bridge and stepping in with a right ding-jarn (butting elbow) and simultaneous left punch. (Of course it can be launched from either side...I'm just trying to be clear. Qwksilver, you may recognise this as "the fourth attack" in the WT chi sau training sections.) Anyway the grab across is a bit like a pak-sau, but it also latches onto your opponent's bridge using what we call "monkey hand". In any case, when done well, you get that jolt and stinging sensation.

Now I know the description above may be hard to follow, especially for those not familiar with the WT branch. But the particular movement doesn't really matter. The same quality of movement extends to all kinds of techniques... pak-saus snap and sting, jut-saus and grabs jolt and disrupt your stance, and so on. It's just one of those really cool things about WC/WT. Like I said, I've often experienced it in the presense of masters like Leung Ting and Emin (eh Qwksilver?), but now my si-dai is starting to get it. Well, if he can learn it... so can I. ...Eventually, that is.

 

[mook jong man]

Dnovice, I focused on describing the "sting" with pak sau because it's easier to describe and visualize. Other movements are tougher to put into words. For one thing, the names and applications of many other techniques vary a lot between the different branches of the Wing Chun family... but I'll give it a try.

In WT we often do an attack in chi-sau, starting by circling our left fook-sau to the inside gate (a kau-sau movement) while simultaneously grabbing across from the right bong sau, catching our opponent's right bridge and stepping in with a right ding-jarn (butting elbow) and simultaneous left punch. (Of course it can be launched from either side...I'm just trying to be clear. Qwksilver, you may recognise this as "the fourth attack" in the WT chi sau training sections.) Anyway the grab across is a bit like a pak-sau, but it also latches onto your opponent's bridge using what we call "monkey hand". In any case, when done well, you get that jolt and stinging sensation.

Now I know the description above may be hard to follow, especially for those not familiar with the WT branch. But the particular movement doesn't really matter. The same quality of movement extends to all kinds of techniques... pak-saus snap and sting, jut-saus and grabs jolt and disrupt your stance, and so on. It's just one of those really cool things about WC/WT. Like I said, I've often experienced it in the presense of masters like Leung Ting and Emin (eh Qwksilver?), but now my si-dai is starting to get it. Well, if he can learn it... so can I. ...Eventually, that is.

I know the traps you are talking about , we start it off slightly different , but in the end the Pak Sau becomes a grabbing and pinning type of movement.

 

[mook jong man]

pak sao is not just a block it's a slap that should make your opponent hesitate to bring out his hand again. Now like I said before idont understand what u mean by his grabs hurt. You have to explain how he does it so we can visualize and help you replicate this.

My sparring partners always tell my paks are good while holding their forearms. What I do is I don't hold back when comes to arms. Your partner won't get hurt.

I actually find it helpful to think of the Pak Sau more as a palm strike , and if I really want to hurt some ones arm I will use more of the edge of my hand to make contact , this concentrates the force into a smaller surface area.
Where a lot of people go wrong with Pak Sau is they start using their fingers instead of the heel of their palm , this is bad for two reasons , it has less power and it means that you have less margin for error as your hand will likely slip off any incoming punch and you will be hit.

Where as using the heel has more power and if you happen to miss making contact with the heel of the palm you can still redirect with the inside of your forearm.

 

[dnovice]

Dnovice, I focused on describing the "sting" with pak sau because it's easier to describe and visualize. Other movements are tougher to put into words. For one thing, the names and applications of many other techniques vary a lot between the different branches of the Wing Chun family... but I'll give it a try.

hello geezer, thanks for taking the time to explain. I think i almost got what you are saying here. lets see.

In WT we often do an attack in chi-sau, starting by circling our left fook-sau to the inside gate (a kau-sau movement) while simultaneously grabbing across from the right bong sau, catching our opponent's right bridge and stepping in with a right ding-jarn (butting elbow) and simultaneous left punch. (Of course it can be launched from either side...I'm just trying to be clear. Qwksilver, you may recognise this as "the fourth attack" in the WT chi sau training sections.) Anyway the grab across is a bit like a pak-sau, but it also latches onto your opponent's bridge using what we call "monkey hand". In any case, when done well, you get that jolt and stinging sensation.

ok this is what i see. you use your fook to bring his tan closer to your bong sau, then the moment its close enough you do a downward slapping grab while stepping forward with a right elbow (which pushes his fook that he has on your bong sau to the side) and simultaneously punch with your left. (im using the same hand directions you are. )

Now I know the description above may be hard to follow, especially for those not familiar with the WT branch. But the particular movement doesn't really matter.

no, its very good, i might just need a little clarification.

The same quality of movement extends to all kinds of techniques... pak-saus snap and sting, jut-saus and grabs jolt and disrupt your stance, and so on.

I understand now. Maybe you are holding back when you pak. Or maybe your paks do sting but your partners just haven't mentioned it.

It's just one of those really cool things about WC/WT. Like I said, I've often experienced it in the presense of masters like Leung Ting and Emin (eh Qwksilver?), but now my si-dai is starting to get it. Well, if he can learn it... so can I. ...Eventually, that is.

you will get there;-)

I actually find it helpful to think of the Pak Sau more as a palm strike , and if I really want to hurt some ones arm I will use more of the edge of my hand to make contact , this concentrates the force into a smaller surface area.

I see. I consider mine more of slap since i use a larger surface area,the whole palm. (fingers not included because you can get hurt that way.)

Where a lot of people go wrong with Pak Sau is they start using their fingers instead of the heel of their palm , this is bad for two reasons , it has less power and it means that you have less margin for error as your hand will likely slip off any incoming punch and you will be hit.

lol. Not only that but you can injure your fingers. I don't advocate using fingers.

Where as using the heel has more power and if you happen to miss making contact with the heel of the palm you can still redirect with the inside of your forearm.

My intention is to redirect or prevent a punch fromhitting me so i use the entire palm. I think with the larger surface area you have more room for error. If you use mainly the heel of your palm or your fingers you can easily miss your target.

 

[mook jong man]

My intention is to redirect or prevent a punch fromhitting me so i use the entire palm. I think with the larger surface area you have more room for error. If you use mainly the heel of your palm or your fingers you can easily miss your target.

Nah I haven't had one hit me yet , the trick is to have your palm slightly cup shaped so that his forearm is less likely to slip out , but focus on trying to make contact with the heel ( actually its at the point halfway between the middle of your palm and the heel of your hand. )

This is the point where you will have the most resistance because you can directly project your force out from your elbow through the bones of your forearm and out through your hand in a straight line. And as I said if you do mess it up you can still parry with your wrist.

But having said that I prefer to use the Pak Sau and punch to break through a guard not really to deflect punches , a Tan Sau or a counterpunch is a lot more safer option to use against straight punches because there is more area to deflect with than a parry.

 

[dnovice]

Mook jong man, i misquoted you above. I have your quotes above under geezers name. (sorry guys.)

Nah I haven't had one hit me yet , the trick is to have your palm slightly cup shaped so that his forearm is less likely to slip out , but focus on trying to make contact with the heel ( actually its at the point halfway between the middle of your palm and the heel of your hand. )

Thats cool mook. There are different ways to skin a cat.

And as I said if you do mess it up you can still parry with your wrist.

why give yourself that chance to mess up? There are enough variables in the fight already.

But having said that I prefer to use the Pak Sau and punch to break through a guard not really to deflect punches , a Tan Sau or a counterpunch is a lot more safer option to use against straight punches because there is more area to deflect with than a parry.

Not sure how you use a counter punch to deflect or why you would. If you are doing what i think, then you are already out of the path of the counterpunch and in that case there is no need for deflection. (thats incredible footwork. mines still a bit blah.)

The way i pak fulfills my purposes. I say so long as you are not being reckless in paking with your fingers, pak whichever way you feel protects you or fulfills the purposes you want the best, based on experience ie.

 

[qwksilver61]

Dnovice, I focused on describing the "sting" with pak sau because it's easier to describe and visualize. Other movements are tougher to put into words. For one thing, the names and applications of many other techniques vary a lot between the different branches of the Wing Chun family... but I'll give it a try.

In WT we often do an attack in chi-sau, starting by circling our left fook-sau to the inside gate (a kau-sau movement) while simultaneously grabbing across from the right bong sau, catching our opponent's right bridge and stepping in with a right ding-jarn (butting elbow) and simultaneous left punch. (Of course it can be launched from either side...I'm just trying to be clear. Qwksilver, you may recognise this as "the fourth attack" in the WT chi sau training sections.) Anyway the grab across is a bit like a pak-sau, but it also latches onto your opponent's bridge using what we call "monkey hand". In any case, when done well, you get that jolt and stinging sensation.

Now I know the description above may be hard to follow, especially for those not familiar with the WT branch. But the particular movement doesn't really matter. The same quality of movement extends to all kinds of techniques... pak-saus snap and sting, jut-saus and grabs jolt and disrupt your stance, and so on. It's just one of those really cool things about WC/WT. Like I said, I've often experienced it in the presense of masters like Leung Ting and Emin (eh Qwksilver?), but now my si-dai is starting to get it. Well, if he can learn it... so can I. ...Eventually, that is.

I'd like to add; a one forward advance step along with body mass,pulling and punching simultaneously....ouch!nice how you tie up both of your opponents arms!.....

 

[mook jong man]

why give yourself that chance to mess up? There are enough variables in the fight already.

If you are doing something like random arms , where the punches are coming in thick and fast , from all angles. Then it doesn't matter if you have the best parry in the world , **** will happen . You are a human being and some of your parrys will not be placed exactly where they should be , so that in the event you don't make optimal contact against a fast strike there is a fail safe mechanism built in.

Not sure how you use a counter punch to deflect or why you would. If you are doing what i think, then you are already out of the path of the counterpunch and in that case there is no need for deflection. (thats incredible footwork. mines still a bit blah.)

A counter punch is just a term we used for using your Wing Chun centerline punch to deflect an incoming straight punch. Often depending on the opponents energy this counter punch will strike straight through. Typically this is followed by a pivot and cut down with further striking.

In essence you are using your own punch to deflect and strike in one fell swoop . There is no real incredible footwork needed , you can either just stand there and let him come to you and he will be forced off to the side of this wedge or you can step into him and do it that way , as I prefer.

 

[dnovice]

A counter punch is just a term we used for using your Wing Chun centerline punch to deflect an incoming straight punch. Often depending on the opponents energy this counter punch will strike straight through. Typically this is followed by a pivot and cut down with further striking.

is the counter punch on the outside of his arm??

 

[mook jong man]

is the counter punch on the outside of his arm??

Yes it is on the outside of the arm , right arm against right arm or left against left. Depending on how committed he is on hitting you , all you really have to do is hold your fist out and he will run into it with his face.

Then from there what we typically do is then we latch his arm down whilst pivoting which pulls him into a low palm strike to the kidneys.

After the palm strike your forearm then travels up his back keeping contact to monitor him and then it comes over his shoulder and can either cut down on his bicep while you pivot again and strike his head with your other hand.

Or you can raise your leg in time with your arm and cut down , stamp kick and punch all at the same time .