Southern Dragon elements in wing chun

[Oily Dragon]

It's possible, but not super likely. Wing Chun does have a Dragon Element/Attitude to it, heck in Hung Fa Yi our Siu Nim Tao has a dragon claw and our Kiu Sao has dragon shape bridging. Just because the Dragon Element is there though, it doesn't mean it's a direct descendant of Dragon Style.

I didn't see much of Dragon attitude in YM's wing chun. Potentially due to the extra simplification of that style by Leung Jan.

It's just true. There is no "possible".

All of the "direct" descendants are here. As we speak. As you just have.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I wonder if I asked a Wing Chun student what the Soft Bridge was, what I would see.

A person's Soft Bridge is like an open book. IN Wing Chun?? A Viper's nest.

 

[Eric_H]

It's just true. There is no "possible".

All of the "direct" descendants are here. As we speak. As you just have.

Lol no

 

[wckf92]

I wonder if I asked a Wing Chun student what the Soft Bridge was, what I would see.

A person's Soft Bridge is like an open book. IN Wing Chun?? A Viper's nest.

Is "soft bridge" know by another name or term? I'm not familiar with that... Thx!

 

[clfsean]

Are we talking about Lum Yiu Gwai's Lung Ying Kuen which is Hakka sourced and wasn't codified until after Wing Chun was established in Foshan and other places? Or the "fill in the blanks with your choice of ... stuff" Dragon which so many people like to take creative license with? I've played LYG's a little, played a lot from Shaolin based things (CLF, Hung, etc... ). From the WC I've danced around with and helped my teacher at home with ... I'm not seeing/feeling either.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Are we talking about Lum You Gwai's Lung Ying Kuen which is Hakka sourced and wasn't codified until after Wing Chun was established in Foshan and other places? Or the "fill in the blanks with your choice of ... stuff" Dragon which so many people like to take creative license with? I've played LYG's a little, played a lot from Shaolin based things (CLF, Hung, etc... ). From the WC I've danced around with and helped my teacher at home with ... I'm not seeing/feeling either.

There was a Yang Taijiquan Dragon form that many were trying to sell a few years back...... per my Yang Shifu.......it was fake, no such form

 

[Jens]

Are we talking about Lum Yiu Gwai's Lung Ying Kuen which is Hakka sourced and wasn't codified until after Wing Chun was established in Foshan and other places? Or the "fill in the blanks with your choice of ... stuff" Dragon which so many people like to take creative license with? I've played LYG's a little, played a lot from Shaolin based things (CLF, Hung, etc... ). From the WC I've danced around with and helped my teacher at home with ... I'm not seeing/feeling either.

Sounds like Oily Dragon is referring to the dragon within Hung Ga Kuen which was the dragon from the original 5 animals of Shaolin

Oily Dragan said
“Basically Wing Chun is Five Animal Five Element Twelve Bridge Hung Ga Kuen minus Leopard (Metal) and Tiger (Fire) styles. All of the Wing Chun forms combined contain a lot of stuff learned both at beginner and advanced levels in Choy Li Fut, Hung Ga, Five Ancestor Fist. A lot of the twisting coiling in Wing Chun is from Dragon style. Dragon is sort of the "hidden" part of Wing Chun compared to the Snake and Crane. But if you know Tiger Crane style, which contains very similar movements as the core Wing Chun forms at the beginning, you see where Wing Chun kind of sticks with short range Snake, Crane, and Dragon characteristics, and leaves out Leopard, Tiger.”

 

[Oily Dragon]

Is "soft bridge" know by another name or term? I'm not familiar with that... Thxer name or term? I'm not familiar with that...

Yau Kiu (as opposed to Gong Kiu) is the classic "single finger zen" pose in Yi Gi Kim Yeurng Ma.

This particular image is not in that stance but it expresses the point well. Wing Chun students should recognize it, and this is not Snake or Crane. This is Shaolin Dragon, in motion it expresses the coiling and seizing and stealing into the opponent, but especially the "soft within hard" stuff that is sometimes considered "internal inside external".

 

[Oily Dragon]

Are we talking about Lum Yiu Gwai's Lung Ying Kuen which is Hakka sourced and wasn't codified until after Wing Chun was established in Foshan and other places? Or the "fill in the blanks with your choice of ... stuff" Dragon which so many people like to take creative license with? I've played LYG's a little, played a lot from Shaolin based things (CLF, Hung, etc... ). From the WC I've danced around with and helped my teacher at home with ... I'm not seeing/feeling either.

I'm not, but Hakka is definitely a big influence.

 

[Oily Dragon]

There was a Yang Taijiquan Dragon form that many were trying to sell a few years back...... per my Yang Shifu.......it was fake, no such form

It's usually a matter of research to find "why" a style or simple movement is called Dragon. If it's legitimate, there's a whole system there that lines up with historical record. If it's not, a simple sniff test will do.

I used to think "Dragon" was Bruce Lee's style. Boy was I ignorant back then.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sounds like Oily Dragon is referring to the dragon within Hung Ga Kuen which was the dragon from the original 5 animals of Shaolin

Oily Dragan said
“Basically Wing Chun is Five Animal Five Element Twelve Bridge Hung Ga Kuen minus Leopard (Metal) and Tiger (Fire) styles. All of the Wing Chun forms combined contain a lot of stuff learned both at beginner and advanced levels in Choy Li Fut, Hung Ga, Five Ancestor Fist. A lot of the twisting coiling in Wing Chun is from Dragon style. Dragon is sort of the "hidden" part of Wing Chun compared to the Snake and Crane. But if you know Tiger Crane style, which contains very similar movements as the core Wing Chun forms at the beginning, you see where Wing Chun kind of sticks with short range Snake, Crane, and Dragon characteristics, and leaves out Leopard, Tiger.”

Basically. And people will tell me "that's just Hung Ga Kuen" but Hung Ga Kuen (the Fei Hung lineage) was the Hoover vacuum of kung fu. It scooped almost everything up.

The Ng Ying (Five Animals/Patterns) is a common thread between many, many different styles. From there you get the Sup Ying (10 patterns), Sup Yee Ying. Xingyi has 12 animals, but uses them in a completely different way than Hung Ga or Wing Chun.

There's even a completely separate 5 animal qigong set that uses deer, bear. This stuff is actually great for people with health issues.

No Dragon here, but the same energy and movement is.

 

[clfsean]

I'm not, but Hakka is definitely a big influence.

In the village / non WFH Hung Kuen sure you can see relations to the Fukinese/Hakka/short shape since they don't carry the long shape from WFH.

 

[Jens]

Yau Kiu (as opposed to Gong Kiu) is the classic "single finger zen" pose in Yi Gi Kim Yeurng Ma.

This particular image is not in that stance but it expresses the point well. Wing Chun students should recognize it, and this is not Snake or Crane. This is Shaolin Dragon, in motion it expresses the coiling and seizing and stealing into the opponent, but especially the "soft within hard" stuff that is sometimes considered "internal inside external".

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I am sorry Oily Dragon but I have to disagree, there is no one finger zen soft bridge in wing chun. The only wck linage who even has something even remotely similar is the fut sao wing chun, but in no way is it used as in hung ga

 

[Oily Dragon]

In the village / non WFH Hung Kuen sure you can see relations to the Fukinese/Hakka/short shape since they don't carry the long shape from WFH.

And the Lam family has preserved stuff that is also not in Wong Fei Hung's curriculum. This is probably the source of Tang Fong's nickname "Old Square Mind".

He refused to teach stuff (like Arrow Fist, Lion's Roar) that Fei Hung left out, because Fei Hung had already incorporated it into his 4 pillars.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I am sorry Oily Dragon, but there is no one finger zen soft bridge in wing chun. The only wck linage who even has something remotely similar is the fut sao wing chun, but in no way is it used as in hung ga

The bridge pose is from Hung Ga Kuen, not Wing Chun.

But the Dragon style that connects them both still uses the exact same concepts, because they are both based on Yang Taoist elements of Earth and Water (which of course connect Snake and Dragon).

You'd have to go beyond kung fu training to know this. You'd need to actually study scripture, that's where a lot of the animal-human discipline connections stand out.

 

[Jens]

The bridge pose is from Hung Ga Kuen, not Wing Chun.

But the Dragon style that connects them both still uses the exact same concepts, because they are both based on Yang Taoist elements of Earth and Water (which of course connect Snake and Dragon).

You'd have to go beyond kung fu training to know this. You'd need to actually study scripture, that's where a lot of the animal-human discipline connections stand out.

Since you’ve studied this scripture perhaps you can share your insights with the rest of us so that we can get a clearers picture of your perspective. The thing I could see the in common between the one finger zen training in hung ha and wing chun is the rooting and waist twisting/torquing mechanics to generate spiralling force from the ground up. Is that what you’re referring to?

 

[clfsean]

And the Lam family has preserved stuff that is also not in Wong Fei Hung's curriculum. This is probably the source of Tang Fong's nickname "Old Square Mind".

He refused to teach stuff (like Arrow Fist, Lion's Roar) that Fei Hung left out, because Fei Hung had already incorporated it into his 4 pillars.

Eh ... you can't really remove Si Ji Hao from WFH's Hung otherwise you're back to the earlier village versions like Che Kong Mak and a few others are sharing with the short/middle training. Sets are one thing, but the training between pre/post WFH and the general shape of things are a smidge different.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Since you’ve studied this scripture perhaps you can share your insights with the rest of us so that we can get a clearers picture of your perspective. The thing I could see the in common between the one finger zen training in hung ha and wing chun is the rooting and waist twisting/torquing mechanics to generate spiralling force from the ground up. Is that what you’re referring to?

Basically, yes. Coiling, rising energy, but there's more to it than that.

I've got a whole set of notes in front of me dusted off so I'll just select some highlights. Under "Dragon": the sum faht of "soft within hard", the Tang Toe Earth movements of swallowing and spitting. The Five Animal Fist second section contains Southern Dragon Fist methods to "steal and leak itno the oppoent using coiling and twisting of the body, blocking and striking with the elements of earth, while invading the opponent's space". These are the same basic elements of Wing Chun. Short range striking, but also short range grappling.

Dragon has claws, unlike Snake and Crane. So, I often wonder, why do so many Wing Chun students forget they have 10 fingers. Always crossing arms, chopping, striking, punching. It's the truly advanced Wing Chun students who find the Dragon and start ripping. Ask Alan Orr.

The common thing between the bridge and mechanics is how the animals are described in Taoist/Buddhist literature, because that was the framework in which the style creators worked. None of it was by chance. Taoist and Buddhist imagery and concepts were the common language of the people who met and interacted and codified things, so when you read a lot of what's been written about the Ng+ Ying styles over the centuries, the techniques when described in writing are rich with symbolism that clarifies a lot.

This is what expands beyond just Hung Ga Kuen as a specific grouping. Let's consider Li Ga, and how Bak Mei surfaced, right down the road. Southern Dragon motifs all over these. Everywhere, really, because "Dragon" is how they referred to old, strong people back in the day in Canton.

It might not jump out but if you read Tang era poetry about dragons (I'm that big of a nerd), or scholarly research into Wing Chun, it starts to knit itself into a big pattern. These scholars below (from Cornell) wrote about the connections between Southern Dragon, Wing Chun, other family styles.

The Creation of Wing Chun: A Social History of the Southern Chinese Martial Arts: Judkins, Benjamin N., Nielson, Jon: 9781438456935: Amazon.com: Books

The Creation of Wing Chun: A Social History of the Southern Chinese Martial Arts [Judkins, Benjamin N., Nielson, Jon] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Creation of Wing Chun: A Social History of the Southern Chinese Martial Arts

www.amazon.com

 

[Oily Dragon]

Another good example of how this all fits together.

This ancient Daoist charm is also very close to the name of a Qing Dynasty era Southern Shaolin Dragon technique. Just because when they made up the techniques, they used contemporary Chinese ideas of phoenixes and dragons.

Another key element of Dragon is circularity. It's the quintessential Yang with a little Yin animal, also why it's the one of two most heavily associated with Qi development (the other being Snake).

This one is even cooler, it describes and ancient general's twin blades, "Blue Frost" and "Purple Lightning".

 

[Oily Dragon]

Eh ... you can't really remove Si Ji Hao from WFH's Hung otherwise you're back to the earlier village versions like Che Kong Mak and a few others are sharing with the short/middle training. Sets are one thing, but the training between pre/post WFH and the general shape of things are a smidge different.

Poor wording on my part.

That's what I meant by already incorporate. WFH didn't remove it, he pulled the elements out and put them in his own system and narrowed it down to the basic 4 since everything was in there, but definitely always gave homage to it rather than straight up nick it. They credited their ancestors the way they always do. Aaand now that you reminded me, Lion's Roar is another source of techniques that ended up being classified as Crane later on. Thanks.

So today the WFH lineage has just 4 huge fist sets, and 3-4 Qigong sets. Chin Cheung is not one of them, yet here is a whole Lam family book on it.

Amazon.com