Sometimes running is not a good tactic or technique.
Source:http://www.local6.com/news/9036610/detail.html
Sometimes we must do something else
- Thread starter Bigshadow
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beau_safken
Black Belt
Well a good way to avert that kind of thing is get a Concealed Weapons Permit. Florida is very good in that respect. I guess maybe some of these people just need to know their victims are armed... No idea what else to do when you have a gun in your face and outnumbered...
MartialIntent
Black Belt
In a situation like this, if you knew the mugger was armed what would you do? Accomplice in a waiting car too. Give the money over, right?Bigshadow said:
What would you do if the demand was made but no firearm was obvious? Would you trust your martial training? Would you give the money over anyway? Or would you push a little first to see what's backing up that demand?
Personally for a small amount from an ATM with no threat of anything on me personally? I think I'd give the money over every time.
I'm not certain how running away comes into the equation but then again, that intense stress can addle any otherwise sensible, rational mind.
Respects!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #4
Agreed! I have my CCL for Florida. Although, I don't feel compelled to carry that often. It is hard to say what would be best to do. Sometimes there are no good choices. Sometimes it is like asking what technique do I try, after I have a knife half buried in my heart! Sorry, but there isn't a whole lot that can be done from there.beau_safken said:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
That is precisely it. I don't know either. But running just didn't seem wise!MartialIntent said:
I guess the guy decided flight was better than fight. Who knows, there could have been alot that could have been done. Who's to say that he couldn't have deceived the attacker by dropping the cash or somehow distracting the attacker to take advantage of the situation.I learned something pretty profound at a seminar this last weekend. It isn't about the techniques, it is ALL about strategy and tactics. Looking at it from that point, maybe it wasn't a wise idea to go to the ATM at that time of the morning or maybe just not in that area. Who knows. But he would have been better off looking at the entire event from a General's perspective. Command and control of the battlefield is MOST important! The same applies to situational awareness.
MartialIntent
Black Belt
Absolutely! I think as fighters we have - or at least *try* to have - a greater receptivity to and awareness of the situation. But at the same time, if we look like a big enough draw for muggers, then even getting our cash at midday in a crowded shopping precinct might not be sufficient protection. I mean I'd hate to think any of us become over-confident to the point of complacency regarding our situational awareness skill to think we'd never get caught out at the ATM. What do you think?Bigshadow said:That is precisely it. I don't know either. But running just didn't seem wise!
I learned something pretty profound at a seminar this last weekend. It isn't about the techniques, it is ALL about strategy and tactics. Looking at it from that point, maybe it wasn't a wise idea to go to the ATM at that time of the morning or maybe just not in that area. Who knows. But he would have been better off looking at the entire event from a General's perspective. Command and control of the battlefield is MOST important! The same applies to situational awareness.
On a side note, I think little attention is paid to the potential dangers of ATM machines. I seem to read about ATM drive-bys and muggings more and more these days. They're such easy pickings with the banker fumbling around with their purse and cards. I think often, teaching how to deal with these situations could bring martial arts schools more into line with what's really happening outside our dojos than some of the contrived situations we dream up for our students and train for ourselves *note to self*...
Respects!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
I certainly hope people don't get over confident....MartialIntent said:
There is a certain level of vulnerability that is intrinsic to the use of an ATM. I have never liked using them. I am quite wary when I do, no matter if it is in the middle of the day or night. Ironically, I am even more cautious when there are alot of people around. With lots of people around, it is far easier for the criminal element to get close without being noticed. That is why I do not use the ATMs unless I HAVE to actually carry some cash. I don't hesitate to make eye contact with everyone around an ATM as I approach. I want people to feel as though "they have been seen". This changes the feel of the environment. Hopefully, stifling a potential criminal.
MartialIntent
Black Belt
You've got yourself right with that no doubt!Bigshadow said:
What would you do Bigshadow if you *did* get caught out and found yourself in the reported situation? I'm assuming running's not at the forefront of your mind??
Respects!
The opt. here is give them what they want and fight or run another day!!!
Terry
Terry
Sometimes running IS NOT an option or the best choice if there are options. A gun already pulled out and pointed at you is a serious intent to get you to understand that it'd be a damn good idea to cooperate .... until an defensive alternative that will be in your favor can be enacted... this is of course in accordance to the level of MA training you have to adequately and effectively deal with that situation.
Not everyone can or will qualify for a CWP Beau. So that option is not always readily available or in some cases desired. Some people on this board may be Martialists because they do not want to deal with guns.
I think any LEO on this board and anywhere else for that matter would agree that cooperating is the safest option than resisting.
In this particular situation there's the glaring unknown of the "assailant" waiting nearby in the parked SUV. Are you for certain that they don't have a gun themselves and that they won't jump out of the driver's side (possibly shooting) to help his buddy/partner, instead of driving off the minnit they see that the jacking has gone fubar-ed? Unless you're Neo (to dodge bullets), a seer, or psychic to know what's gonna happen in the next few seconds of the robbery... cooperate and have a higher chance of making up the money lost to the scumbag with some overtime at your job.
Yes there's the 50% chance that the dickless wonder might shoot you anyway. Sort of "heads you live, tails you die" moment. But each situation is different, each robber is different. Your training, your experience, your awareness to see an clear opportunity (IF it EVER comes up) to take it may help in your coming out in that situation alive and (even better) unharmed.
Your judgement skills are putting your life on the line at that moment ... are you sure you trust them. The poor guy lost his life judging that he could run.
Not everyone can or will qualify for a CWP Beau. So that option is not always readily available or in some cases desired. Some people on this board may be Martialists because they do not want to deal with guns.
I think any LEO on this board and anywhere else for that matter would agree that cooperating is the safest option than resisting.
In this particular situation there's the glaring unknown of the "assailant" waiting nearby in the parked SUV. Are you for certain that they don't have a gun themselves and that they won't jump out of the driver's side (possibly shooting) to help his buddy/partner, instead of driving off the minnit they see that the jacking has gone fubar-ed? Unless you're Neo (to dodge bullets), a seer, or psychic to know what's gonna happen in the next few seconds of the robbery... cooperate and have a higher chance of making up the money lost to the scumbag with some overtime at your job.
Yes there's the 50% chance that the dickless wonder might shoot you anyway. Sort of "heads you live, tails you die" moment. But each situation is different, each robber is different. Your training, your experience, your awareness to see an clear opportunity (IF it EVER comes up) to take it may help in your coming out in that situation alive and (even better) unharmed.
Your judgement skills are putting your life on the line at that moment ... are you sure you trust them. The poor guy lost his life judging that he could run.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #11
It is hard to say because each situation is different. I can safely say, I cannot out run a bullet. So running is not an option. I would say comply and look for an opening/opportunity to do something that will affect the likelihood of my safety and survival (Whatever it is that presents itself). It could be running, it could be fighting. Let the situation unfold naturally and look for the the opportunity I need to ensure my survival. That is my approach.MartialIntent said:You've got yourself right with that no doubt!
What would you do Bigshadow if you *did* get caught out and found yourself in the reported situation? I'm assuming running's not at the forefront of your mind??
Respects!
Blotan Hunka
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Unarmed against the gun? Without a chance at disarming, which is more dangerous than running IMO. Running is absolutely the best bet, but it is a bet, sometimes you loose. Sometimes you comply and let the guy get even closer so he can shoot you with NO chance of escape. The guy made a decision and it didnt work for him this time. Thing with running is you better be running with a plan (like getting behind something) just running straight away across an empty lot is probably not the best decision. But a decision is way better than none at all. Fortunately he is alive by that link report which shows that even though he was shot he survived. The BG could have plugged a stationary man right in the head.
OP
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- #13
Blotan Hunka said:
I hear you, but I don't think I can agree with that. Sometimes it is a good idea, other times it is not. However, whatever the choices, sometimes they are not good choices and people pay for it.
Blotan Hunka
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If a victim were to suddenly run, the attacker must decide right at that point whether or not to shoot. If they hesitate a couple seconds your chance of survival just rocketed from 0% to 50%. If you get a little further away your chances of survival increase even more. You could get shot. You could get killed. But if the killer wants to do you in and you stand still you have a much lower chance of survival.
You should only grapple or strike the gun-wielding attacker if he is right next to you or within striking range. But then again, if you move towards him, the gunman will think he has no choice but to pull the trigger. Running, on the other hand, seems more confusing. Shoot or don't shoot? That is the question he has to answer. Of course running away is different from "running to safety".
You should only grapple or strike the gun-wielding attacker if he is right next to you or within striking range. But then again, if you move towards him, the gunman will think he has no choice but to pull the trigger. Running, on the other hand, seems more confusing. Shoot or don't shoot? That is the question he has to answer. Of course running away is different from "running to safety".
MartialIntent
Black Belt
BH, as you say, it's a gamble either way, that's true. I suppose that gamble is essentially...Blotan Hunka said:
Run - hope that he's bluffing, thinks you're not worth it and doesn't need to save face with his accomplice. But at the same time you risk taking one from him if he really does have the intent to follow through [and is a reasonable shot].
-OR-
Stay put, work an angle, attempt a disarm? I mean, we train for them. Why do we do that if shy away from using them in the one time when such techniques are called for? Of course with staying put, the risk is giving him the money and becoming a chalk outline anyway.
Blotan Hunka, I can't argue with your running with a plan suggestion and similarly with Bigshadow's analogy of going with the situational flow. I'd have just one addition and that is that we have to be pretty damn quick about it - strategizing yeah but it's gotta be split-second strategy, right?
Respects!
Blotan Hunka
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IMO disarming should always be the last resort. When running is impossible. He will absolutely try to start shooting if you go for the disarm. And training them is world away from pulling one off in real life. Thats the riskier gamble I would say. Odds are better he wont if you take off. It all depends on the situation. We have no idea the ranges involved in this situation. In the long run taking action of some sort, of any sort is better than taking none at all. The whole "even a bad plan is better than no plan" thing.
OP
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- #17
Blotan Hunka said:
I definitely agree! Whatever is the best way to ensure your survival. And... I certainly am not advocating "grabbing" the gun!
Lastly... It is late, I am going to bed!
Flatlander
Grandmaster
In my mind, the compliance issue really depends upon the circumstances. Compliance wouldn't always be my first choice. For example, if he seems to want my money, I'll give him my wallet and hope that it's a satisfactory ending for the bad guy.
But, if he's asking me to kneel, that's different. I may not comply with that.
I also find the idea of his need to 'save face' with the companion noteworthy. That could, very well, be the case.
But, if he's asking me to kneel, that's different. I may not comply with that.
I also find the idea of his need to 'save face' with the companion noteworthy. That could, very well, be the case.
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If they get that close to verbally exchange with you, you probably shouldn't run first. They'll be too close, and all you've done is give your back to them.
Use your feelings, if you think they'll go away after you give it ...fine, if not, go all out and do what is needed!
Use your feelings, if you think they'll go away after you give it ...fine, if not, go all out and do what is needed!
Blotan Hunka
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I dont know. Most studies I have heard of speak of the poor ability to hit moving targets even at fairly close range. He may very well shoot, but I think the odds are pretty good that he will miss. But like before, nothing is 100% in life.
