So, Sword Duels do still happen nowadays?

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS: Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-

 

[Maching]

Oh dear, you are beginning to sound like an abusive troll. As you seem so keen in posting this stuff I had assumed you came from Dominica anyway. What exactly do you do? Not HNIR that's for sure as you seem to think Musashi did Iaijutsu. You seem to think 'we' are idiots' yet still you don't back anything up except with videos. It's ghetto fighting. There is probably far more of this in Africa than in Dominica

Tez, thanks for this interesting clip. Unlike the OP I see plenty in common between the machete and stick fighting arts of the Philipines, the Caribbean and parts of Latin America. The blending of Spanish sword techniques, native arts, and practical experience with agricultural tools used for defense and to settle fierce disputes ...all combined with a strong desire to come out alive will perforce result in certain commonalities.

On the other hand I really don't get the OP's insistence that such fighting only occurs in the D.R. Does he mean to tell us that people in the ghettos of Manila, or the gangs of El Salvador, or a million other rough places, don't fight "for reals" with knives and machetes?

Hyoho, not sure how many times I have to tell you this but the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC is not the same as the DOMINICA. Two totally different countries and cultures. That mixed with the fact that I never said anything about Musashi doing Iaijutsu makes me totally discount anything you say. You were the first one to call people "idiots" by the way About Musashi pointed out he used sticks or whatever else he could pick up in combat when he felt like it (similar to a video you criticized). Maybe you should brush up on the English language or something because you are making absolutely no sense. My only evidence is videos!? haha lol Well a picture is worth a thousand words and a video is...well pretty much fact. What you see is what happened.

About other places fighting with knives...sure it happens (usually only people attacking unarmed people though not duels). Machetes, not so much. Definitely not like the Dominican Republic where they will lay down guns and duel in the streets with swords to prove they are men (it's a macho thing). There's a whole book written about it and numerous videos...does it have something in common with other places around the world that used to fight with swords? I am sure it does. I am sure it is also unique in many ways too.

 

[Hyoho]

So DR and D are different. Point taken. But it is a little confusing when they both call themselves Dominican

Musashi didn't use sticks or anything else he could pick up. But that's another subject and something you won't find out just looking at videos. Anyway that's another subject and hardly a comparison.

If you do a quick search you will see how many other countries use a machete. The whole of Latin America and Africa also use it. You say its a macho thing to do? The term machete 'is' a diminute form of the word macho. I will digress on my use of the word idiots but can hardly withdraw using uneducated.

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make. That we should now recognize machete as a martial art? Martial Arts develop after educating people to get 'off' the street. Original fighting takes on an 'educational art form".

I guess that's why you don't see us all doing this kind of thing. Do you suggest we all go out there and do the macho thing and fight each other?

 

[Hyoho]

Its interesting to look at the world crime index rate. Out 442 cities worldwide Santo Domingo ranks around 23rd from the top. With a safety index of 26.54 not a place to go if you value your life. 67.71 chance of being attacked, safety walking alone at night 9.38.

 

[geezer]

About other places fighting with knives...sure it happens (usually only people attacking unarmed people though not duels). Machetes, not so much. Definitely not like the Dominican Republic where they will lay down guns and duel in the streets with swords to prove they are men (it's a macho thing). There's a whole book written about it and numerous videos...does it have something in common with other places around the world that used to fight with swords? I am sure it does. I am sure it is also unique in many ways too.

Maybe Machete dueling is a big thing in the DR, but it sure isn't the only place where people still fight with swords, machetes and other large bladed weapons. A couple of minutes on youtube andI found these clips:

Recife Brazil, Machete y Daga duel:

Here's some people fighting with Machetes, stave, knives and staves in Columbia. Interestingly, they seem to have soldiers with assault rifles sort of acting like ...referees.

More from Columbia:

Not machetes, just a knife duel in the Philippines:
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=b-jUTvrsrjE

And, some other islanders (not Dominicans) fighting with machetes:

Finally, here are some really macho, machete wielding thugs terrorizing some tourists in El Salvador. Must be MS-13, La Mara Salvatrucha:

For some reason that last clip horrifies me the most!

 

[Crazy Eyes]

You know, centuries ago, this is how civilized men settled their differences. Nowadays, everyone goes crying to a lawyer every time they get their feelings hurt. I say let's bring the duels back, let cold steel decide the winner.

 

[Maching]

So DR and D are different. Point taken. But it is a little confusing when they both call themselves Dominican

Musashi didn't use sticks or anything else he could pick up. But that's another subject and something you won't find out just looking at videos. Anyway that's another subject and hardly a comparison.

If you do a quick search you will see how many other countries use a machete. The whole of Latin America and Africa also use it. You say its a macho thing to do? The term machete 'is' a diminute form of the word macho. I will digress on my use of the word idiots but can hardly withdraw using uneducated.

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make. That we should now recognize machete as a martial art? Martial Arts develop after educating people to get 'off' the street. Original fighting takes on an 'educational art form".

I guess that's why you don't see us all doing this kind of thing. Do you suggest we all go out there and do the macho thing and fight each other?

Actually Musashi did use sticks and things laying around. When he fought Kojiro he used a wooden boat oar (a big stick) he grabbed from the boat before he went to fight him. He used a stick to kill his first man as a matter of fact. He also used a stick/piece of fire wood/wooden bow he was carving when he was confronted at his school. Just some examples. Point being, you don't need a sword, machete or any sharp instrument to kill or hurt someone. A crude piece of wood will do in the right hands. Musashi was in a league of his own, not comparing him to anything we see here.

However, if you could have seen him fight...or any samurai fight...what would it have looked like? Certainly not like the robotic movements you see in kata. It would probably look chaotic and crazy...similar to the machete fight videos. I highly doubt they cared how they looked while they were trying to survive and kill their enemy.

I am aware of where the word "machete" supposedly comes from. Not sure what your point is.

Never said we should all be fighting each other to the death with swords. That would be insane nowadays. But, I think most the martial arts that are practicing sword fighting (or knife fighting) could learn a thing or two from the Dominicans. They are actually putting their life on the line when they do it. It is not just theories, they are actively testing their methods in real combat. Something you almost never see in the real world today and has been largely lost to history and kata.

 

[elder999]

Actually Musashi did use sticks and things laying around. When he fought Kojiro he used a wooden boat oar (a big stick) he grabbed from the boat before he went to fight him. He used a stick to kill his first man as a matter of fact. He also used a stick/piece of fire wood/wooden bow he was carving when he was confronted at his school. Just some examples. Point being, you don't need a sword, machete or any sharp instrument to kill or hurt someone. A crude piece of wood will do in the right hands. Musashi was in a league of his own, not comparing him to anything we see here.

However, if you could have seen him fight...or any samurai fight...what would it have looked like? Certainly not like the robotic movements you see in kata. It would probably look chaotic and crazy...similar to the machete fight videos. I highly doubt they cared how they looked while they were trying to survive and kill their enemy.
.

Yer tellin' Colin about Musashi?

...........just.........

 

[Hyoho]

As I said this thread has nothing to do with Musashi whatever. However: He carved a boat oar into a blade Sanjaku Nisun on his way over to the island. He threw it away when he returned but carved another identical one to give to the Lord Hosokawa. That's in the Yatsushiro house in Kumamoto Ken when I last held it. The reason for this was it measures 2 sun longer than Sasakawa's Sanjaku (3 shaku blade). His use of wooden blades was because he abandoned live blades having no need for them.

His waza is based upon Sen. A single defined devastating action based only upon the opponents attack. Nothing chaotic and crazy about it. The only swordsmen that teach waza are ones that survive. It is still taught without adaptation with exception to a few grey areas. If you want to start googling Musashi and open another thread to discuss his philosophy please free to do so. I dont need to google him at all. To make any comparison with DR macho machete street fighting has to be one of the most preposterous things I have ever heard.

It seems you are of the opinion that what we do nowadays with no protection is safe, maybe too safe as not to experience the possibility of serious injury? You would be wrong. Although we do our best not to get injured a trip to the hospital is sometimes required. If we didn't practice as realistically as possible there would be no point.

So what do you actually practice and whatever makes you draw these conclusions? I'm guessing 'nothing'.

 

[Maching]

As I said this thread has nothing to do with Musashi whatever. However: He carved a boat oar into a blade Sanjaku Nisun on his way over to the island. He threw it away when he returned but carved another identical one to give to the Lord Hosokawa. That's in the Yatsushiro house in Kumamoto Ken when I last held it. The reason for this was it measures 2 sun longer than Sasakawa's Sanjaku (3 shaku blade). His use of wooden blades was because he abandoned live blades having no need for them.

His waza is based upon Sen. A single defined devastating action based only upon the opponents attack. Nothing chaotic and crazy about it. The only swordsmen that teach waza are ones that survive. It is still taught without adaptation with exception to a few grey areas. If you want to start googling Musashi and open another thread to discuss his philosophy please free to do so. I dont need to google him at all. To make any comparison with DR macho machete street fighting has to be one of the most preposterous things I have ever heard.

It seems you are of the opinion that what we do nowadays with no protection is safe, maybe too safe as not to experience the possibility of serious injury? You would be wrong. Although we do our best not to get injured a trip to the hospital is sometimes required. If we didn't practice as realistically as possible there would be no point.

So what do you actually practice and whatever makes you draw these conclusions? I'm guessing 'nothing'.

And your point is...you were wrong? You said he never used sticks right? What would you classify that oar as? Yes, he used the blade (stick) because it was longer than Kojiro's who was known for using a very long blade in combat (Swallow technique). You really buy that he stopped using real blades because he became too good? He beat his first man to death with a stick while he was very young. Maybe he just liked using sticks, or liked the savagery of it.

Really that is his whole line of thought? Did you happen to miss in the Go Rin No Sho where he mentioned it is better to attack first if given the opportunity? What school of Musashi are you studying in?

I don't need to google him either my friend, been to Japan many times along with many other countries.

 

[Maching]

Yer tellin' Colin about Musashi?

...........just.........

Yes, I am doing just that. What do you know about Shinmen Musashi? You seem to think you know a lot...please fill us in.

 

[elder999]

Yes, I am doing just that. What do you know about Shinmen Musashi? You seem to think you know a lot...please fill us in.

Not much of anything, really-in that regard, I am no one of any consequence. What I do know is that if I did want to know anything of substance about Musashi, I would ask............I dunno.....one of the senior students of Hyoho Niten Ichiryu,, a menkyo holder in Musashii's style I dunno....someone like..........I dunno, someone who'd lived in Japan studying and teaching that art for more than 30 years like..............I dunno, him.

See, I know that's who Colin is.....you? Just trollish pixels polluting my screen....

Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the original post.....

 

[Crazy Eyes]

I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.

 

[Maching]

Not much of anything, really-in that regard, I am no one of any consequence. What I do know is that if I did want to know anything of substance about Musashi, I would ask............I dunno.....one of the senior students of Hyoho Niten Ichiryu,, a menkyo holder in Musashii's style I dunno....someone like..........I dunno, someone who'd lived in Japan studying and teaching that art for more than 30 years like..............I dunno, him.

See, I know that's who Colin is.....you? Just trollish pixels polluting my screen....

Of course, all of this has nothing to do with the original post.....

Well, which school? There are a few claiming a line to Musashi. There is no end all, be all source of knowledge of him in Japan. There is no blood line to the school and there are ancient bits of records of him scattered all throughout Japan. Many historians have different opinions about who he exactly was and what he exactly did.

At any rate, I think Miyamoto Musashi was an awesome fighter. No argument there. If Hyoho (Colin) has trained in that style as you said it would explain to me why he feels threatened by the Dominican videos and the way they fight over there. He probably thought people didn't duel like that anymore, and now realized his style might not hold up in the real world. Musashi was an amazing fighter but I am sure, just like with everything else, his art would be unrecognizable to him today the way it is trained. That man was one of a kind, there is no comparison. But, that doesn't mean his art has held up over time to his standards. In the Go Rin No Sho he actually tells his students to go and duel from time to time to test the art. I am sure that part of his teachings died a LONG time ago.

Laws about carrying blades? I would think its different in each country no?

 

[elder999]

I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.

Not in New Mexico. Not in Arizona.

Granted, that wouldn't stop someone from calling the cops on you if you made them nervous (you'd attract less attention with a pistol on your belt) or the cops showing up and asking you what's up, but there's no law against it.....

Well, which school? There are a few claiming a line to Musashi. There is no end all, be all source of knowledge of him in Japan. There is no blood line to the school and there are ancient bits of records of him scattered all throughout Japan. Many historians have different opinions about who he exactly was and what he exactly did.

The Niten Hyoho Ichi-ryu can trace it's succession directly back to Musashi through 12 generations.

Soooooo, again you pollute my screen with trollish, meaningless pixels.

(and neither do you!)

 

[Maching]

Not in New Mexico. Not in Arizona.

Granted, that wouldn't stop someone from calling the cops on you if you made them nervous (you'd attract less attention with a pistol on your belt) or the cops showing up and asking you what's up, but there's no law against it.....



The Niten Hyoho Ichi-ryu can trace it's succession directly back to Musashi through 12 generations.
View attachment 19371

Soooooo, again you pollute my screen with trollish, meaningless pixels.

View attachment 19372
(and neither do you!)

Wow did you copy and paste that all by yourself? I can do the same thing:

"The Gosho-ha Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū disputed the lineage claiming that Iwami Toshio Gensho is the sole legal representative of Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū until 2007. Miyagawa Yasutaka established a line of Niten Ichi-ryū that continues to practice and thrive in the Kansai region of Japan. Miyagawa Yasutaka and Kiyonaga Tadanao were both students of Aoki Kikuo during the same period. This "Kansai" line, currently under 10th Headmaster Miyagawa Morito, is an alternate but equal lineage to the main line."

Musashi traveled all over dueling and studying. While he did this he also taught others about his way. He influenced a lot of people from a young age. Not unheard of that other martial arts in Japan still carry on some of his teachings. There are numerous books published about this.

Anyway, I think this whole conversation has deteriorated and it is time for me to bow out. It started out as sword duels in modern times and now it is turning into a history conversation about Japan that has already been discussed numerous times all over the internet.

And frankly, I don't think I can sit through the boredom.

 

[elder999]

Musashi traveled all over dueling and studying. While he did this he also taught others about his way. He influenced a lot of people from a young age. Not unheard of that other martial arts in Japan still carry on some of his teachings.

Name two.

 

[geezer]

I wonder if there are any laws against walking around with a rapier or katanna sheathed at your side as you walk down the street.

Not where I live. Most people I know always carry a pair of pistols and a rapier or cutlass, and often a large bowie knife whenever they leave home. ....OK. Maybe not, but legally they could and no license would be required. Arizona is a funny place.

On the other hand, if you are going to allow people to carry firearms openly or concealed without having to get a permit, why restrict blades? You gotta admit that wouldn't be logically consistent. And if you justify carrying guns based on the second amendment guaranteeing "the right to bear arms" ...at least as arms were conceived in the late 18th Century ...you know muskets, bayonets, small swords and hunting knives, then how can you justify the anti-blade restrictions in place in many jurisdictions in the U.S.?

Now, @ Maching (if he's still around) Let me repeat Hyoho's question from post 49, what arts do you practice? Do you have any personal experience in machete fighting as shown in your clips from the DR, or have you trained with someone who has? Or is this discussion all based on books, articles and Youtube clips?

BTW You should know that Elder has been in a knife altercation where the other guy died. He's not just some smart guy who knows a lot and expresses himself well.

 

[Hyoho]

I'm not really interested in online family tree's to promote credibility and validity. But I can set the record straight and post a few facts as a previous Kocho Bucho of the ryu: The 10th soke first appointed three menkyo kaiden wishing to return to Musashi's original concept. As it takes more than one person to promulgate a ryu. You can't do it on your own.

He sat down at home and with his uchideshi Iwami Toshio and wrote out the three Menkyo on 23 November 2003. One was written for his successor, two more were meigi (honorary/services rendered). What followed was one meigi awardee was in China anyway. The other one Kiyonaga Fumio decide to go off, leave the ryu and start his own dojo. Kiyonaga did call me and ask me to relinquish my obligation and leave to go with him. Naturally I declined. Imai Soke seeing that a menkyo kaiden award was insufficient to promulgate the ryu decided to continue with the Soke system and inaugarated Iwami Toshio Harukatsu as the 11th Soke on 20th December.

Not long after that Kiyonaga died. His few followers becoming leaderless. 10th Soke was still alive at that time. Naturally if one of your appointees dies? That's the end of it.

During the lifetime of the 8th Soke Aoki Kikuo was also head of the Sekiguchi ryu an iaido/jujitsu ryu with one base in Kumamoto. When Aoki died the Sekiguchi Ryu went its own way. The followers of the deceased Kiyonaga appealed to the Sekiguchi ryu and a Shihan called Gosho Motoharu who had previously acted as an assistant to Imai Soke to give them some kind of authenticity. So they became a self appointed Gosho Ha. He also died and yet another person took the reins of this group called Yoshimochi (correct spelling) Kiyoshi hence..... the inaccurate chart that has been posted.

Other people can form a Ha (family). A Soke sometimes suggest and allows a senior member of the ryu starts his own family line. Hence the older Ha. A Ha is not self generated just because you are an old member of a ryu. If that were the case we would have thousands of Ha.

To put it simply you can't become leaderless and just promote yourself up, again to an equal position. On the internet? Maybe.

So the original Seito line recognized by Monbusho, Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, Nippon Budokan still continues and does embu every year along with Yagyu Ryu. Other ryu only get to demonstrate every two years. But as Imai Soke once said to me. "We don't need the associations, they need us".

Iwami Toshio Harukatsu is still the current 11th Soke. But due to illness a Sodenshiki was held on 24th November 2013 appointing Kajiya Takanori as the 12th and current Soke Kajiya Takanori soke Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in English

Under normal circumstances I would not bother to take the trouble to put up this information. Our business is for us to know and others to find out and if they are checking online are just guessing anyway. But as only three surviving members of the original 10th generation and the only one that was actually privy to this information. I thought t should be put online for future reference. Also I am the only one who can put it down in English and I no longer require Soke's permission to do so. I sometimes wish he was still alive and none of this silly charts that you see would exist that were put up to be unchallenged. He was also a judge and when he was Soke no one messed around.

 

[lklawson]

I have a friend based in Belgium who is deep into HEMA Historical European Martial Arts: he's also master of the Montante a 2-handed 5'6" blade used for multiple opponents

How could he be a "Master" at Montante? It died out as a living lineage and everything done now is all reconstruction.

I'd buy, maybe, some level of expertise. But mastery? Nah.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk