Small Circle JuJutsu
- Thread starter Ceicei
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rmcpeek
Guest
We had Wally Jay do a seminar at our school several years ago. Just awesome.
Go here for info on him and Small Circle Jujitsu: http://www.smallcirclejujitsu.com/
Go here for info on him and Small Circle Jujitsu: http://www.smallcirclejujitsu.com/
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Wally was/is a progressive martial artist. He doesn't hesitate to change his mind and try something new or different in his search for effectiveness.
SCJJ is mostly a stand up method, CeiCei (or was in the early 90's...it may well be evolving) but with a little ground work.
Wally's three tape video series is an excellent resource for just about anybody. His methods integrate well with a number of styles. His books (plural) are also excellent.
As a person Wally is a wonderfully warm and gentle man, and very approachable. I've heard good things about the technical abilities of SCJJ masters Ed Melaugh and Leon Jay (Wally's son). One person who attended a Leon seminar said he was a bit put off by Leon's "no touch knockout," but that his joint locking skills were first rate. I include that as a caveat for those who don't put stock in "no touch knockouts."
Regards,
Steve
SCJJ is mostly a stand up method, CeiCei (or was in the early 90's...it may well be evolving) but with a little ground work.
Wally's three tape video series is an excellent resource for just about anybody. His methods integrate well with a number of styles. His books (plural) are also excellent.
As a person Wally is a wonderfully warm and gentle man, and very approachable. I've heard good things about the technical abilities of SCJJ masters Ed Melaugh and Leon Jay (Wally's son). One person who attended a Leon seminar said he was a bit put off by Leon's "no touch knockout," but that his joint locking skills were first rate. I include that as a caveat for those who don't put stock in "no touch knockouts."
Regards,
Steve
Tgace
Grandmaster
My personal opinion....wrist lock stuff are great tools, but of somewhat limited use. Ive found that while they may work against "maybe" people (not 100% resistive) and when applied with the element of surprise, they are very tough to apply otherwise. Great to have in the "toolbox" but I wouldnt dedicate myself to a style that was based on them. Just my opinion, take it or leave it....
OP
OP
I asked him how Small Circle JuJutsu compares with BJJ or JJJ, and his reply was that SCJJ does a lot more than just newaza and that it originated from Hawaii, known as Dunzon-ryu (sp?). It is very similar to Jyusho Jitsu(sp?).
This led to follow up my follow up question asking him to clarify what Small Circle JuJutsu is and he told me:
"Our system is a very Martial system. Most people don't understand what the word "Martial" means. That is why we teach in different ways. Master Okazaki incorporated everything into his system from Kung Fu to Savat To Hawaiian (missed a word here) in the techniques. We do everything from strikes, kicks, modern weapons, massage (? not sure if I heard him right) technique healing arts, revival and resuscitation techniques."
It was the last part of his comment (after the modern weapons) that gave me pause. It reminded me of threads here on MT talking about "No Touch strikes" and that they rely on resuscitation methods. How common is it to practice massage technique healing arts, revival and resuscitation techniques? Am I thinking about the same thing?
My impression is that this school is a mixed martial arts type of training. The reason I wondered was his sign outside the dojo: "Hagannah FIGHT System, Hwarang Do, Aikido, JuJutsu, Morning and Night classes, Children and Adults".
I asked about his curriculum. Basically his classes "vary with what the students need, sometimes we emphasize one aspect, sometimes we take three or four aspects. A lot of it depends on how many senior students and how many beginning students show up to class."
I am looking for a JuJutsu/JuJitsu school, but still have not decided on what style. Apparently he does not teach Small Circle JuJutsu separately from all the other components. What he said sounded very intriguing though, so I wanted your feedback on what you knew about it.
I am favoring Japanese JuJutsu (a different place). Unfortunately, that kind of training is hard to come by. There is one school in the next town that teaches JJJ (it is scheduled at a time when I can't take it
). There are tons of Brazillan JuJitsu schools around--most are a bit too far to be convenient and I have not yet developed a strong enough desire :inlove: about JuJutsu/JuJitsu to travel far.
Any more feedback?
- Ceicei
This led to follow up my follow up question asking him to clarify what Small Circle JuJutsu is and he told me:
"Our system is a very Martial system. Most people don't understand what the word "Martial" means. That is why we teach in different ways. Master Okazaki incorporated everything into his system from Kung Fu to Savat To Hawaiian (missed a word here) in the techniques. We do everything from strikes, kicks, modern weapons, massage (? not sure if I heard him right) technique healing arts, revival and resuscitation techniques."
It was the last part of his comment (after the modern weapons) that gave me pause. It reminded me of threads here on MT talking about "No Touch strikes" and that they rely on resuscitation methods. How common is it to practice massage technique healing arts, revival and resuscitation techniques? Am I thinking about the same thing?
My impression is that this school is a mixed martial arts type of training. The reason I wondered was his sign outside the dojo: "Hagannah FIGHT System, Hwarang Do, Aikido, JuJutsu, Morning and Night classes, Children and Adults".
I asked about his curriculum. Basically his classes "vary with what the students need, sometimes we emphasize one aspect, sometimes we take three or four aspects. A lot of it depends on how many senior students and how many beginning students show up to class."
I am looking for a JuJutsu/JuJitsu school, but still have not decided on what style. Apparently he does not teach Small Circle JuJutsu separately from all the other components. What he said sounded very intriguing though, so I wanted your feedback on what you knew about it.
I am favoring Japanese JuJutsu (a different place). Unfortunately, that kind of training is hard to come by. There is one school in the next town that teaches JJJ (it is scheduled at a time when I can't take it
). There are tons of Brazillan JuJitsu schools around--most are a bit too far to be convenient and I have not yet developed a strong enough desire :inlove: about JuJutsu/JuJitsu to travel far.Any more feedback?
- Ceicei
In Small Circle Jujitsu it does mention that Wally Jay was certified in massage as part of his learning, I wish I could be of more help to you, but all my books are gone, school year's over and I'm moving home tomorrow so I'm without my resources.
Also, from the reading I've done, for a long time, in China especially, the local doctor was also the local martial arts instructor. Two different sides of the same coin, hurt and heal. My jujutsu instructor has worked on my sometimes after an injury in class and it is quite common for judo instructors to be taught resusicitation for when people get choked out or knocked unconciousl...
Personally, I think that if you are going to run a martial arts class you should at least be certified in basic first aid.
Also, from the reading I've done, for a long time, in China especially, the local doctor was also the local martial arts instructor. Two different sides of the same coin, hurt and heal. My jujutsu instructor has worked on my sometimes after an injury in class and it is quite common for judo instructors to be taught resusicitation for when people get choked out or knocked unconciousl...
Personally, I think that if you are going to run a martial arts class you should at least be certified in basic first aid.
Ceicei said:
Hi, I'm not a small circle guy, but I've got some experience with a couple (Seminars with Ed Melaugh and one with Leon Jay).
For what it's worth:
Wally Jay developed his version of jujutsu after studying with Henry Seishiro Okizaki in Hawaii. The 'small circle' reference does in fact refer to a small, push/pull movement used in many of the moves. The forte of Small Circle jujutsu is small joint manipulations, e.g. finger locks, wrist locks, etc., but they do have most of the things you might expect in a Japanese Jujutsu style. Stand up grappling is emphasized along with moderate use of pressure points. In the late 90's Wally Jay became involved with George Dillman and Remy Presas, and incorporated things from Kyusho-jutsu and Modern Arnis into the teachings.
Henry Seishiro Okizaki was a legend in Hawaii. He made his living as a masseuse, and taught Danzan Ryu Jujutsu / Judo in Hawaii. He fought in several 'mixed martial arts' matches against boxers and gained notoriety that way. The location where he taught was the same as one used by noted kempo figure James Mitose, William Chow's brother attended Okizaki's class and William Chow incorporated some of the techniques into his own Kempo. Okizaki, in addition to his kodenkan judo / Jujutsu, studied kung fu, Lua (a native Hawaiian art of bonebreaking) and other arts, and incorporated concepts into his own. Okizaki also printed apretty comprehensive manual of self defense for women and girls back in 1928 or so.
The Danzan Ryu system is still active in Hawaii, and there are still people practicing massage that learned from Okizaki.
If you are looking for groundwork, you will most likely not be satisfied, but if you like pain compliance techniques, you will have a ball.
Matt
OP
OP
Wow! Thank you, Matt!
What you've said made sense and concides with what the SCJJ instructor was saying. At the time we had the conversation, I thought the instructor said "Hawaiian luau", but figured the Luau part didn't match in the context of martial arts (unless they eat a lot). I'm glad you supplied the correct word (Lua) and gave me more background information on his system.
I really appreciate your comments. I learned a lot.
I am looking more for a ground-work grappling style, so I guess the SCJJ with its emphasis on stand-up grappling may not quite fit within my search.
- Ceicei
What you've said made sense and concides with what the SCJJ instructor was saying. At the time we had the conversation, I thought the instructor said "Hawaiian luau", but figured the Luau part didn't match in the context of martial arts (unless they eat a lot). I'm glad you supplied the correct word (Lua) and gave me more background information on his system.
I really appreciate your comments. I learned a lot.
I am looking more for a ground-work grappling style, so I guess the SCJJ with its emphasis on stand-up grappling may not quite fit within my search.
- Ceicei
Wally Jay is the real deal, and so is his system (some of which was adopted for Modern Arnis). Check out his site at www.smallcirclejujitsu.com or search on him here. I think the no-touch stuff was picked up in Big Three seminars (George Dillman, Wally Jay, Remy Presas). It's not original SCJJ.
For groundwork, though it has some, BJJ is a much better deal, and I do recommend that.
For groundwork, though it has some, BJJ is a much better deal, and I do recommend that.
Gray Phoenix
Green Belt
That pretty much covers it.
SCJJ was born out fo the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu created by Professor Henry Seishiro Okazaki. The Danzan Ryu is one the most widely taught JJJ systems in the United States. Wally Jay is/was one Okazaki's top students. Professor Jay has a unique and valid point of view on how Jujitsu should be done, and so he started his own Ryu, but it is still based upon the creative genius of Professor Okazaki.
To address the "short comings" of joint locks, and supposed lack of ground work:
This is a true Martial Art. Joint locks are only as limited as one chooses, and that is only one piece of the art. If your goal is to submit someone in a competition ring or if your the cop arresting some maggot, joint manipluations will only take you so far. That is why true Jujitsu does not have any rules that say one must stop at a "tapout". Why do I have to wait for a pain technique to work on someone who may be able to resist pain. BREAK IT!!! TEAR IT!! Jujitsu is all about control. I can apply a strike combination, take down, submission or joint lock and take any technique/move from gently removing someone from a room, to removing necessary body parts.
Only when the limitations of a ring (or TV camera for the cops) are applied does the art then become limited.
For further information:
http://www.ajjf.org
http://www.danzan.com/
http://www.smallcirclejujitsu.com
http://www.valleyjujitsu.com I had to add my own school since my own teacher is a Professor of the Danzan Ryu.
brothershaw
Purple Belt
From my general understanding
1- Small Circle jujitsu is legitimate stuff
2- Danzan Ryu may have a much broader influence than alot of people realize on other arts "developed" or introduce to the public after Danzan Ryu.
3- Often at least in the past, in addition to martial arts students were taught healing arts, massage, medicine etc, so they could not only defend themselves but take care of themselves and others. THe seperation of martial arts and "medical" training is based more on the different way martial arts are taught now.
1- Small Circle jujitsu is legitimate stuff
2- Danzan Ryu may have a much broader influence than alot of people realize on other arts "developed" or introduce to the public after Danzan Ryu.
3- Often at least in the past, in addition to martial arts students were taught healing arts, massage, medicine etc, so they could not only defend themselves but take care of themselves and others. THe seperation of martial arts and "medical" training is based more on the different way martial arts are taught now.
I like SCJJ. I like Professor (GM) Wally Jay.
I have applied what was taught by GM Remy Presas on the ground, it does take some adaptation though.
No I have to agree with Tom that a single joint lock applied against a resistant opponent may not work. Yet, The Technique done properly will break the joint. Now I understand that Tom as Police officer may not be able to execute this with the same appearance as a civilian. Yet the same could be true, where officer can pull a fire arm the same citizen could not use a firearm without looking just as bad as an officer that might ahve broken someone joint.
Yet, in SMJJ and in Modern Arnis, the flow is taught, so if the first technique is not working you move to the next, and then the next, and as long as you feel the tension in the body of the opponent you can keep up the control and or gain control.
So, I like it, and recommend it.
I have applied what was taught by GM Remy Presas on the ground, it does take some adaptation though.
No I have to agree with Tom that a single joint lock applied against a resistant opponent may not work. Yet, The Technique done properly will break the joint. Now I understand that Tom as Police officer may not be able to execute this with the same appearance as a civilian. Yet the same could be true, where officer can pull a fire arm the same citizen could not use a firearm without looking just as bad as an officer that might ahve broken someone joint.
Yet, in SMJJ and in Modern Arnis, the flow is taught, so if the first technique is not working you move to the next, and then the next, and as long as you feel the tension in the body of the opponent you can keep up the control and or gain control.
So, I like it, and recommend it.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I was an uke for Mr. Jay at a seminar. Study the system avidly, but never, ever let them get you by a finger. You will regret it for days to follow.
Regards,
Dave
PS -- if they do get a finger, remember the triad of Ice, Advil, and DMSO.
Regards,
Dave
PS -- if they do get a finger, remember the triad of Ice, Advil, and DMSO.
Hey There,
Small Circle emphasizes standing in the form of how to initially deal with the attack. The ground work that they do is very realistic and emphasizes a return to an upright position. It is a very well thought out realistic system.
I became interested in the system when a former training partner of mine utilized some of its principles during a free sparring session. Afterwards I attended a few Small Circle seminars (including the Big Three), read his books, and watched his videos.
The Small Circle part of Wally Jay's system indeed speaks of the emphasis on tight opposition during a lock. As for the effectiveness of the pain inducing locks, I can attest that they do work. Much of their emphasis is on uninterrupted flow. If a lock doesn't work you simply try another like the flow of punches in a boxing match when looking for an unprotected spot. He has a list of ten principles that serve as the basis for the entire system.
The most memorable event for me at a seminar with Wally Jay was when he used me as a demonstration dummy. He asked me to throw a punch at him. I threw a slow loping left jab. He backed off and said to throw a real punch. I threw it a little faster. He backed off again and wanted me to throw it harder. Mind you he was in his 70's at the time. I'd been in situations like this before and thought to myself that I might as well do it. But I didn't want to play into a set up so easily and so I threw a right hook instead of a left jab. Before I knew it I was lying on my back with my right arm across my face with my hand pinned under his foot, his opposite knee on my tricep, his fist grinding into my chest directly over my heart, and his left hand alternately making punching motions at my nose. Meanwhile I was in pain to the point where I had blinding white flashes going before my eyes. Every spot he was touching me on was a nerve center. He then went through explaining what he had done, what meridians he was riding, and the principles underneath it.
Obviously his students won't have the depth of knowledge that he has, but much of it is embodied in his system. I found the principles easily integrated into my existing abilities and I was able to utilize some of it in my toolkit when I was working as a bouncer.
I think the school you're looking at might not be the best example of a Small Circle school. Their website has a list of representative schools and you might try contacting them to check on legitimacy.
Small Circle emphasizes standing in the form of how to initially deal with the attack. The ground work that they do is very realistic and emphasizes a return to an upright position. It is a very well thought out realistic system.
I became interested in the system when a former training partner of mine utilized some of its principles during a free sparring session. Afterwards I attended a few Small Circle seminars (including the Big Three), read his books, and watched his videos.
The Small Circle part of Wally Jay's system indeed speaks of the emphasis on tight opposition during a lock. As for the effectiveness of the pain inducing locks, I can attest that they do work. Much of their emphasis is on uninterrupted flow. If a lock doesn't work you simply try another like the flow of punches in a boxing match when looking for an unprotected spot. He has a list of ten principles that serve as the basis for the entire system.
The most memorable event for me at a seminar with Wally Jay was when he used me as a demonstration dummy. He asked me to throw a punch at him. I threw a slow loping left jab. He backed off and said to throw a real punch. I threw it a little faster. He backed off again and wanted me to throw it harder. Mind you he was in his 70's at the time. I'd been in situations like this before and thought to myself that I might as well do it. But I didn't want to play into a set up so easily and so I threw a right hook instead of a left jab. Before I knew it I was lying on my back with my right arm across my face with my hand pinned under his foot, his opposite knee on my tricep, his fist grinding into my chest directly over my heart, and his left hand alternately making punching motions at my nose. Meanwhile I was in pain to the point where I had blinding white flashes going before my eyes. Every spot he was touching me on was a nerve center. He then went through explaining what he had done, what meridians he was riding, and the principles underneath it.
Obviously his students won't have the depth of knowledge that he has, but much of it is embodied in his system. I found the principles easily integrated into my existing abilities and I was able to utilize some of it in my toolkit when I was working as a bouncer.
I think the school you're looking at might not be the best example of a Small Circle school. Their website has a list of representative schools and you might try contacting them to check on legitimacy.
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
Wow! I hit the jackpot with this thread. I was doing a search on SCJJ. My instructor (Jujitsu) was talking about his linage (I only caught half of what he said, because he teaches my honey and me in our house, so I was beginning to clean up when he was talking about it).
But it is SCJJ, and he was taught in CA by ..... again, didn't catch his teachers name .... who was taught by Wally Jay. My instructor moved here about 5 years ago from CA (where he had his own small dojo). He didn't teach till I learned of his rank and style (I always wanted to learn Jujitsu
). Then I bugged him to teach me.
So, I wanted to learn more about it. I am going to check out the links that were posted here. Thanks all for the great info
But it is SCJJ, and he was taught in CA by ..... again, didn't catch his teachers name .... who was taught by Wally Jay. My instructor moved here about 5 years ago from CA (where he had his own small dojo). He didn't teach till I learned of his rank and style (I always wanted to learn Jujitsu
). Then I bugged him to teach me.So, I wanted to learn more about it. I am going to check out the links that were posted here. Thanks all for the great info
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