Shotokan - Art of War

[SPX]

Anyone seen this?

I just ordered it. . .

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Haven't seen it, but it looks like a lot of good footage!

 

[SPX]

I actually just got it in the mail today.

I'll give it a watch and come back with a review when I'm done.

 

[Ironcrane]

Some of those blows hurt just watching them. I'm interested in your review. I'm also interested in what it was that made Shotokan dominate.

 

[Tez3]

Some of those blows hurt just watching them. I'm interested in your review. I'm also interested in what it was that made Shotokan dominate.

Can you expand on what makes you think Shotokan dominates and what it dominates? The title is a misnomer as Shotokan along with other karate styles was designed for civilian self defence not war or fighting in battles.

 

[Ironcrane]

Can you expand on what makes you think Shotokan dominates and what it dominates? The title is a misnomer as Shotokan along with other karate styles was designed for civilian self defence not war or fighting in battles.

In the video at around 2:08 on volume three the narrator speciffically states that "the Shotokan style of Karate dominates the world at all levels." The video then goes on to talk about the KUGB Shotokan group, and mentiones about three other times that they dominated in competition.

So given that, I'm curious to know what it was that made Shotokan so successful.

 

[Tez3]

In the video at around 2:08 on volume three the narrator speciffically states that "the Shotokan style of Karate dominates the world at all levels." The video then goes on to talk about the KUGB Shotokan group, and mentiones about three other times that they dominated in competition.

So given that, I'm curious to know what it was that made Shotokan so successful.

Lol so the narrator on a Shotokan video says that it dominates the world and that means it does? There are many karate competitions, many organsisations, there's even many world championships, no one competition is the definitive one so that if Shotokan karateka won 3 comps it doesn't mean they dominate, what if it's an all Shotokan competition?

 

[Cayuga Karate]

Tez3 wrote:

The title is a misnomer as Shotokan along with other karate styles was designed for civilian self defence not war or fighting in battles.

It's an interesting point, regarding the origins of the art. However, given the role of Chinese military attachés in the development of Okinawan karate, perhaps the military potential of the art is worth considering.

From Funakoshi's Karate-Do Kyohan:

There is no doubt that the many experts who traveled between Okinawa and China contributed heavily to the bringing of karate to its present level. For example it has come down by word of mouth that about 200 years ago, a certain Sakugawa of Akata, in Shuri, traveled to China and then returned to Okinawa after mastering karate to become known as Karate Sakugawa. Again, according to Shiodaira of Shuri, one hundred and fifty years ago (as noted in the Oshima Note, by Tobe of Tosa, Japan), a Chinese expert, by name of Ku Shanku, arrived in Okinawa with a few of his students and introduced a type of kempo. Okinawan experts such as Sakiyama, Gushi, and Tomoyori, of Naha, studied for some time with the Chinese military attache, Ason; Matsumuma of Shuri, Maesato and Kogusuku of Kume, with the military attaché, Iwah; and Shimabuku of Uemonden, and Higa, Senaha, Gushi, Nagahama, Aragaki, Higjuanna and Kuwae, all of Kunenboya, with the military attaché, Waishinzan. It is said that Gusukuma, Kanagusuku, Matsumura, Oyatomari, Yamada, Nakazato, Yamazato, and Toguchi, all of Tomari, was a Southern Chinese who drifted ashore at Okinawa.[emphasis added]

-Cayuga Karate

 

[RobinTKD]

Lol so the narrator on a Shotokan video says that it dominates the world and that means it does? There are many karate competitions, many organsisations, there's even many world championships, no one competition is the definitive one so that if Shotokan karateka won 3 comps it doesn't mean they dominate, what if it's an all Shotokan competition?

I think, Tez, that he is using the word 'Dominate' purely because it is used in the trailer, it doesn't seem to me that it's his opinion.

Although in terms of Karate, shotokan has definitely 'dominated' the commercial aspect in terms of it is the most readily available style to learn, in northants, that i know of, we have double figures of shotokan schools, 1 kyokushinkai, 1 Isshin-Ryu, and the Goju-Ryu class that i used to attend has just finished.

Speaking of style against style, it's a moot argument, it's the martial artist that matters not the martial art.

Sorry to play devils advocate.

 

[Tez3]

We have Wado Ryu 'dominating' up here lol. When Wado came here first the UK was split into areas for the senior grades to take over. They did better in certain areas than others.
http://karatenorthampton.co.uk/default.aspx
http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/pjk-wado-kan-karate-northampton

 

[RobinTKD]

We have Wado Ryu 'dominating' up here lol. When Wado came here first the UK was split into areas for the senior grades to take over. They did better in certain areas than others.
http://karatenorthampton.co.uk/default.aspx
http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/pjk-wado-kan-karate-northampton

Well i never knew that they were there! It seems they train at the same place as the GODO Ju-Juitsu club, and the Kyokushinkai club!

 

[Tez3]

Well i never knew that they were there! It seems they train at the same place as the GODO Ju-Juitsu club, and the Kyokushinkai club!

Abandon TKD immediately, never look another style in the face again and train only Wado Ryu, it has everything you ever need in it, puts everything else in the shade!!!

 

[RobinTKD]

my instructor trained in Wado-Ryu as well as TKD, it's fair to say that we train in a similar (more traditional?) way. But it does look interesting, i hear its quite similar to Goju and Isshin-ryu?

 

[Tez3]

my instructor trained in Wado-Ryu as well as TKD, it's fair to say that we train in a similar (more traditional?) way. But it does look interesting, i hear its quite similar to Goju and Isshin-ryu?[/QUOTE]

Tbh I'd don't know. When I couldn't train Wado anymore, the instructor left and the club closed, I went onto TSD and MMA. I do love Wado though and would go back in a shot if I could. It has subtleties and nuances I love, it seems a 'deep' martial art if you know what I mean. Very effective I've found, I've put a lot of it into our MMA.

 

[Cayuga Karate]

Regarding Shotokan being an "Art of War", there are a few notable Shotokan teachers who claim that some of the movements in kata are designed for use in combat, if the soldier lost his weapon. I'm curious if anyone on this forum has seen these claims.

-Cayuga Karate

 

[Tez3]

Regarding Shotokan being an "Art of War", there are a few notable Shotokan teachers who claim that some of the movements in kata are designed for use in combat, if the soldier lost his weapon. I'm curious if anyone on this forum has seen these claims.

-Cayuga Karate

I've seen some mention of this but to be honest I think it's unlikely they could be used on a battlefield. I've also been told that the flying sidekick is used to knock a rider off his horse, as a rider I find this far fetched too. I'll have a look and see if I can find something on those claims, I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere, if I can remember where I saw it lol, old age you know!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I've seen some mention of this but to be honest I think it's unlikely they could be used on a battlefield. I've also been told that the flying sidekick is used to knock a rider off his horse, as a rider I find this far fetched too. I'll have a look and see if I can find something on those claims, I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere, if I can remember where I saw it lol, old age you know!

I agree with the flying side kick portion of your statement being utter nonsense.. .

However, I'm not convinced that some movements found within katas are not derived in some part from military tactical maneuvers. The Mooye Dobo Tongi is a Korean military text written in 1559, but it was pretty much a transcription of an older Chinese military text. While it really appears to be nothing more than PT maneuvers rather than tactical stuff, it outlines PT with various weapons, horseback riding, and empty hand fighting. Hwang Kee supposedly derived some of the Moo Duk Kwan's later forms from these illustrations (can't remember what I'd read, was either yuk ro, chil sung, and/or hwa sun). The illustrations have similar movements found within Chinese, Korean, and Japanese/Okinawan forms.

Due to Karate's historical evolution, I highly doubt it was used during any Japanese/Okinawan battlefield conflict. And, I cannot claim that movements found within Japanese Kata were ever used on the battlefield, but due to the historical context of the transcribed Chinese text, I cannot discount it either.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with the flying side kick portion of your statement being utter nonsense.. .

However, I'm not convinced that some movements found within katas are not derived in some part from military tactical maneuvers. The Mooye Dobo Tongi is a Korean military text written in 1559, but it was pretty much a transcription of an older Chinese military text. While it really appears to be nothing more than PT maneuvers rather than tactical stuff, it outlines PT with various weapons, horseback riding, and empty hand fighting. Hwang Kee supposedly derived some of the Moo Duk Kwan's later forms from these illustrations (can't remember what I'd read, was either yuk ro, chil sung, and/or hwa sun). The illustrations have similar movements found within Chinese, Korean, and Japanese/Okinawan forms.

Due to Karate's historical evolution, I highly doubt it was used during any Japanese/Okinawan battlefield conflict. And, I cannot claim that movements found within Japanese Kata were ever used on the battlefield, but due to the historical context of the transcribed Chinese text, I cannot discount it either.

I imagine that the moves could be trained for use on the battlefield, a soldier would want every option available to him. I just can't imagine them actually being used against armed soldiers all crowded together in a battle. It could be I'm thinking more of Western battles from the Romans to the Napoleonic era but I don't think the battles would have been too different in Asia.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I imagine that the moves could be trained for use on the battlefield, a soldier would want every option available to him. I just can't imagine them actually being used against armed soldiers all crowded together in a battle. It could be I'm thinking more of Western battles from the Romans to the Napoleonic era but I don't think the battles would have been too different in Asia.

I tend to agree with you, and from what I've seen from scholars' opinions on it I'd say you're right. Most have asserted that although this type of training had little value for large-scale battle, it was useful to train bodily flexibility, reflexes, hands speed, quick, solid footwork and jumping capacity, because these attributes are very valuable for a warrior to possess.

 

[Tez3]

I tend to agree with you, and from what I've seen from scholars' opinions on it I'd say you're right. Most have asserted that although this type of training had little value for large-scale battle, it was useful to train bodily flexibility, reflexes, hands speed, quick, solid footwork and jumping capacity, because these attributes are very valuable for a warrior to possess.

Poor soldiers, it's all training for them! Different weapons, different names but the equivilants of the Sgt.Maj have been shouting at troops for millenia now. Move you orrible little men.....