Sho Bushido Ryu Bujutsu

SeaSharp

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Has anyone ever heard of Sho Bushido Ryu Bujutsu http://www.shobushido.com/. I've read that it was created by Randy Hutchins and is derived from Sho Bu Do Bujitsu - a "lost" Okinawan style. I'd like to know if anyone has experience with this style, the school, its instructor or students. The idea of a real, pragamtic, aiki-jujitsu type JJJ in my own back yard is quite compelling. I cannot find anything that gives insight into the quality of the school. I've got no experience in jj or aikido so I'm not able to evaluate the "goodness" of the school/art.

Thanks
 

Marc Abrams

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Here is a discussion on E-budo that might provide some more information:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1933

It should be noted that when the teacher does not talk about lineage (which is very, very important in Japan) there is usually some bad "events" that had occurred that no one wants to talk about. The larger reality should rest with whether or not the teacher is good and the students are good. The trappings of rank from dubious organizations are always unfortunate, but do not necessarily mean that your learning experience will not be worthwhile. I prefer to stick with clearly documented lineage and teachers of the higher caliber from those lineage.

Good Luck!

Marc Abrams
 
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SeaSharp

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Thanks for the link. It appears that Robert Morton is vouching for the founder of Sho Bushido as being a Youdan in Sho Bu Do. Of course my next question is who is Robert Morton? Is this a well know & well regarded person in the JJ community? It seems there was some sort of drama between Morton & Hutchins. Furthermore, it seems Morton learned his art from the founder of Sho Bu Do but knows nothing about the history or lineage of the founder. Hmm...I'm not sure what to make of that.

Mark - to your point - I'd love to train in a great JJJ school with documented lineage but I haven't seen anything like that around. There is plenty of TKD, Kenpo, MMA and BJJ.

It was my understanding that lineage is important in the Japanese arts. I noticed that one of the senior students achieved 1st black in about 3 yrs. My impression - which is possibly quite wrong - is that the soft/gentle arts typically take 10-ish years of consistent training to achieve a Dan rank while striking arts typically fall in the 4-6 yrs range. The only reason I mention it is that I'm trying to find *some* gauge to understand the quality of the students & instruction. I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into before contacting the school. I've looked through YouTube for videos from either of these styles or instructors but didn't see anything.

In this particular case all of that is only slightly important to me important. I don't see this as my primary art - just a supplement to my primary art which is a striking art. The bottom line for me is the quality of instruction, the techniques, skills, body mechanics, etc plus the overall effectiveness of this art in terms of self defense. Is it good? That's all I care about. Frankly, I don't care about the belts. I just want to learn.

Btw - if Morton Sensei of Hutchins Sensei ever read this - I mean no disrespect. I'm an uneducated outsider simply trying to learn more about what you teach.
 

Chris Parker

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Has anyone ever heard of Sho Bushido Ryu Bujutsu http://www.shobushido.com/. I've read that it was created by Randy Hutchins and is derived from Sho Bu Do Bujitsu - a "lost" Okinawan style. I'd like to know if anyone has experience with this style, the school, its instructor or students. The idea of a real, pragamtic, aiki-jujitsu type JJJ in my own back yard is quite compelling. I cannot find anything that gives insight into the quality of the school. I've got no experience in jj or aikido so I'm not able to evaluate the "goodness" of the school/art.

Thanks

Hi SeaSharp,

Right, before we get into this, bear in mind that I'm initially only going to address the evidence presented in the website you linked in terms of authenticity. Because, bluntly, it doesn't look good.

The very first thing is the name "Sho Bushido Ryu". It's just... odd (to be gentle). In fact, it makes no sense, and demonstrates a number of gaps in their knowledge of a number of aspects of Japanese martial culture (such as what a Ryu is, what Bushido is etc). It is indicitive of a group that wants to have the trappings of a traditional Japanese art, but doesn't really know what they are, or how they work. In other words, a modern creation mimicking an actual Japanese tradition. But that's fine, in a way, as that is exactly what they say they are (although it does lend itself to a range of other issues as we continue).

Next is spelling. Now, let's get something clear (with no debate about it this time...), if you are dealing with a Japanese system, the spelling is 'Jutsu', not 'Jitsu'. They are different words, with different meanings, and different written characters. Confusingly, though, this group uses both, seemingly without noticing that they are swapping between them. They seem to use 'jitsu' for "Jujitsu", and 'jutsu' for "Bujutsu", although there are references to "Bujitsu" and "Jujutsu" every now and then. Again, this shows gaps in understanding and knowledge, which points to no actual Japanese tradition.

The schizoid approach continues through their description of themselves, with the set-up seeming to be very modern, dealing with modern assaults and so on... which goes against the 'traditional Japanese Jujutsu' image they are setting up as well. Add to that the overwhelming "we are the deadliest!" type of language used, which is typically an over-compensation for a percieved lack (in this case in authenticity, if I was to guess at it, especially based on Robert Morton's post on E-Budo) in their system. In their "FAQ" section, they actually describe their system as "reality based". Hmm. No. It's not (that's not me saying it's not effective, just that it's not an RBSD as claimed).

The "History of the Art", "Our Founder", and other pages are also rife with misinterpretations and errors when it comes to such things as well, but the page on the senior students, listing one as "9th Dan Menkyo Kaiden" in a system that doesn't use a Menkyo licensing system (an old ranking method used in Koryu systems) is just bizarre. Oh, and 7th Dan is more commonly Nana-dan, not Shichi-dan, although some do use the "Shichidan" pronunciation.

So to sum up, we have a group using the trappings of Traditional Japanese martial arts, while claiming at the same time to not follow such things, but still misuse the terminology, and have a rather heavy-handed "we're so ultra violent!" message to boot. In other words, not authentic traditional Japanese martial arts in the slightest.

Now, if the question is "are they any good?", that's a different issue. There are scant clips out there of them, but here are a few:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/jhoff56?blend=1&ob=5#p/u[/video]

In terms of a critique, this is overkill, the targetting is off, the usage of the weapon is not consistent with Japanese methodology (traditional), the attacker is not really attacking, the weight is too high, and, while cleanly done, is not really all that effective or practical.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/jhoff56?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/3/iLBlZZ6Q1Bg[/video]

The attack is very far short of the defender, and the attacks are not consistent with a traditional Japanese attack. The actual blocks and movement is almost non-existant, the throw is okay, but not great, and the pin is pretty ordinary (and slipped out of by the Uke without any real issue).

[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/jhoff56?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/2/4DhDhtMXaSI[/video]

Ah, this is a little better. But this is all trying to look like traditional Japanese Jujutsu, nothing close to RBSD whatsoever. The throw is okay, nice and clean movement here, but nothing special. And the stomp to the head (if they are trying to look at reality based ideas) is a straight ticket to jail.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/jhoff56?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/1/IH7fFltp4gk[/video]

Hmm, some good ideas, but nothing great. The throw, this time, isn't good. The grip is weak, and the body mechanics make it far too easy to resist.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/jhoff56?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/4/jAjhnJ7M9cI[/video]

The blocks are ineffective against an ineffective attack, the throw is lacking in terms of mechanics, and the pin is poorly executed, going against the way the flow of the movement works (in other words, unnecessarily forced).

My personal advise would be to keep looking.
 
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SeaSharp

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Thanks Chris - that is the kind of analysis & feedback I'm looking for. I don't yet have the eye to determine good technique from bad in JJJ.
 

Marc Abrams

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Chris:

Here I was being charitable........ The area that this poster lives in has a real lack of substance as far as martial arts instructors go. I can't vouch for the land-down-under, but here, we have a surplus of wannabe martial arts experts. Would you like us to export some your way :) !

As to your analysis, you are spot on!!! The attacks suck, the nage typically has bad posture, too much muscular tension and poor connection. That being said, believe it or not, that might actually be the best that this guy can find where he lives. The charitable part of me let him know that if this was the best that he could find for the time being, he might actually get something positive from the experience. Who knows....

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 

Tanaka

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If a man can block punches like that. I don't see why he even needs to do all the rest.
 
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SeaSharp

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Ok...perhaps I'll move on to searching for hapkido in my area. JJJ is just not available.
Thanks again for the input
 

Chris Parker

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Chris:

Here I was being charitable........ The area that this poster lives in has a real lack of substance as far as martial arts instructors go. I can't vouch for the land-down-under, but here, we have a surplus of wannabe martial arts experts. Would you like us to export some your way :) !

As to your analysis, you are spot on!!! The attacks suck, the nage typically has bad posture, too much muscular tension and poor connection. That being said, believe it or not, that might actually be the best that this guy can find where he lives. The charitable part of me let him know that if this was the best that he could find for the time being, he might actually get something positive from the experience. Who knows....

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc,

Yeah, I get the charitable approach, believe me, I was still being gentle! And while I recognise that this may be the best on offer around (not sure of the area in question, though), the initial post was asking about the system as they were interested in the possibility of "real, pragamtic, aiki-jujitsu type JJJ in my own back yard" (even though it is referenced as being a "lost" Okinawan system [?], which would make it far closer to Chinese systems than Japanese ones), so I chose to look at the idea of it being a "real" Japanese Jujutsu system. Which it failed rather quickly.

Er, we have more than enough less-than-credible 'martial artists' around, don't really need any more, thank you for your kind offer (hell, one is more than enough!). But out of interest, what area are we talking about here?
 

lklawson

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Next is spelling. Now, let's get something clear (with no debate about it this time...), if you are dealing with a Japanese system, the spelling is 'Jutsu', not 'Jitsu'. They are different words, with different meanings, and different written characters.
Just a quick note, Dear Reader. Chris doesn't want a debate about this issue for two reasons. First, his stance is clear and well defined. No need to hash it out and it is a comparatively minor point in his critique of the system. Second, the entire debate of pronounciation has been waged before and should be availabe via a search should you wish to subject yourself to the whole, grinding, read. The synopsis of the debate is:

Side 1: "Jitsu" is not the right Japanese pronouciation at all; that means something unrelated. "Jutsu" isn't quite right either, really, but it's really, really close to Western ears and so is the preferable of the two.

Side 2: Romanization of Japanese words plain sucks and getting close is often "good enough." Further, "Jitsu" is well accepted as a romanization even if it may have issues, similar to the psuedo-word "irregardless." Finally, "Jitsu" as a romanization has long standing historic preceedant, going back to the early 20th Century when Japanese martial systems were first introduced to the west, often rendered as "Jui-Jitsu" by Victorian era westerners.

That's the Reader's Digest version. Though I admit that I participated in the debate, I rather view the whole thing similar to the gun debate surrounding whether the part is a "magazine" or a "clip."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Ok...perhaps I'll move on to searching for hapkido in my area. JJJ is just not available.
Thanks again for the input
My honest recommendation is to skip that and, instead, go to Judo. If you feel the need for striking, Boxing or Muay Thai should be readily available.

There are some other good grappling and striking arts but Judo and Boxing are highly respected, dirt common, and if even THEY aren't available then you live in a martial arts wasteland.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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SeaSharp

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But out of interest, what area are we talking about here?
Chester County PA in the US which is in the south western suburbs of Philadelphia.

My honest recommendation is to skip that and, instead, go to Judo. If you feel the need for striking, Boxing or Muay Thai should be readily available.
There are some other good grappling and striking arts but Judo and Boxing are highly respected, dirt common, and if even THEY aren't available then you live in a martial arts wasteland.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm involved in a striking art now & am looking to augment it with some sort of practical grappling/aiki/jutsu art. There are a few judo options close to me. I'm definitely open to it but would prefer something that isn't so dependent on the opponent wearing a gi. I just discovered what appears to be an authentic Daito Ryu instructor http://www.budophiladelphia.com/Instructors.html. I'd love to get involved in that but it would be a nearly 2 hour drive with traffic which just won't work considering my family & work schedule.
 

Chris Parker

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Chester County PA in the US which is in the south western suburbs of Philadelphia.


I'm involved in a striking art now & am looking to augment it with some sort of practical grappling/aiki/jutsu art. There are a few judo options close to me. I'm definitely open to it but would prefer something that isn't so dependent on the opponent wearing a gi. I just discovered what appears to be an authentic Daito Ryu instructor http://www.budophiladelphia.com/Instructors.html. I'd love to get involved in that but it would be a nearly 2 hour drive with traffic which just won't work considering my family & work schedule.

Cool, thanks for that. A few things to start off with, then.

You currently train in a Kempo system, if I'm not mistaken, yeah? That's your striking taken care of (as you indicated), so now you're looking to augment that with "some sort of practical grappling/aiki/jutsu art" (small thing here: "jutsu" simply refers to "art", or "practical art", not specifically grappling, or even unarmed, as in Kenjutsu [swordsmanship], Sojutsu [spearmanship], and so on; next, "aiki" is a concept attached to certain systems, based on blending with an opponent's incoming energy, or force, again not necessarily what you are looking for). But let's look to what you are looking for.

You say it needs to be practical. If you mean for a modern attack/self defence situation, then I wouldn't really worry too much about the old systems, they are designed against attacks that are not found today, and don't have modern self defence as part of their aim at all. You also say that you don't want it to necessarily be dependant on wearing a gi.... gotta tell ya, again that'll take you away from the older, or traditional methods.

Realistically, you're looking for BJJ or Judo, or a group refering to their approach as 'No-gi Grappling', often found in MMA gyms. Don't take this as discouragement, just a look at the difference between what you're asking for, and what we're discussing here.
 
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SeaSharp

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You are correct, I train in kenpo karate.

Yes, ultimately I'm just looking for good effective grappling skills. My perception - again, I'm uneducated here - is that some JJJ's are not sport oriented in the way Judo & BJJ might be. For example, things such as eye gouges & limb/joint destruction are taught as opposed to rolling for 10 minutes trying to pass the guard. My preference is to find a pragmatic, self defense oriented system/art/style that is focused on grappling/locks/throws/control. That is how I came to the idea that JJJ is what I should be looking for. As a close second preference - I'd be happy to train in Judo, sport jujitsu or BJJ. I hope that makes sense. I apologize for mangling the terminology style/art/system, hopefully my description was clear.

There is a BJJ school in my are which seems to have a very good reputation, http://www.alliancepa.com/. I think the judo/bjj probably is my best available option.
 

Chris Parker

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Cool, let me help to educate you then! Most of the older Japanese systems will not be sports oriented, however they will be highly formalised, and not really geared towards self defence in the slightest. That doesn't mean that they're not good, just that you need to understand their context if that's what you're looking for.

Here are some examples of Japanese Jujutsu (Koryu systems):

Yagyu Shingan Ryu Taijutsu

Many older systems will include weaponry, such as Takenouchi Ryu here.

Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu

Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu

For something more pragmatic, BJJ or Judo are actually a better bet, due not to technical methods, but training methodology. But, to be frank, a pragmatic self defence system will be far less focused on grappling, so look to it mainly as a way to understand a different environment. Learning to pass guard is far more important than learning to defend against traditional attacks.
 
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SeaSharp

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Hey, I think I'm learning something here :) I think the best approach would be to check out the local bjj/judo offerings and pick the one which works for me.

Thanks again
 

lklawson

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PHILADELPHIA!!! Well why didn't you say so! I have a friend who teaches old school Catch as Catch Can subwrestling (through the Fujiwara lineage, ims) in Philly! He also teaches old school Pugilism (which included grapples, throws, and various dirty boxing type stuff) and Pankration so he has grappling down to a "T" and knows how to integrate it with striking.

Dan Kanagie of Wolfhound Martial Arts.

Seriously, honest and for true, give him a try. I 100% guarantee you'll be more than happy.

Tell him Kirk Lawson sent you!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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