shaolin animal boxing sifu search

[govmulestyle]

I am searching for a sifu that has trained in shaolin animal boxing, either purist or amalgamation of forms, to answer a few questions regarding ligitamacy of instruction and techniques. I would like to speak to someone that trained with a pre 28th generation shaolin master (if there is such a thing, going off information Ive received). Any help is appreciated.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The location that you are looking in may help

 

[WC_lun]

If I am not mistaken the current abbot of Shaolin is 28th or 29th generation, so finding a pre28th generation is going to be a tall order.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I did not actually know, I had to look it up

Martial Arts Abbot is Shi De Li 31st generation

And then there is a Clerical Abbot Shi Yongxin but I cannot find a generation and I doubt it matters much

Either way Pre-28th will be hard or next to impossible to find since it is likely they are all dead or very old by now

But then I am not sure Shaolin Animal boxing requires a Shaolin Monk.

 

[clfsean]

Shaolin from Henan didn't have much in the way of animal or mimetic boxing. Sure they used names & not saying there's not a technique or two that resembles it.

If you're looking for animal or mimetic boxing that is truly based on those things, go find a good Hung Ga or Choy Lee Fut or Eagle Claw or Praying Mantis, Fukienese White Crane, etc... school.

 

[govmulestyle]

To clarify,

Im looking for some one that may have trained in the animal arts of a pre 28 master. They do no have to be "the" master.

I am looking to verify kung fu that I learned and make a comparative analysis of what is being taught today.

any help is appreciated.

 

[clfsean]

*oiy*...

*facepalmus maximus*

 

[mograph]

Have you contacted the representatives of Shaolin in your country?

 

[Xue Sheng]

To clarify,

Im looking for some one that may have trained in the animal arts of a pre 28 master. They do no have to be "the" master.

I am looking to verify kung fu that I learned and make a comparative analysis of what is being taught today.

any help is appreciated.

First a question: Your profile does not say you trained Kung Fu (Wushu), Exactly what style did you learn?

Now to clarify

Pre-28th will be hard or next to impossible to find since it is likely they are all dead or very old by now.... and not interested in comparative analysis

and

Shaolin from Henan didn't have much in the way of animal or mimetic boxing. Sure they used names & not saying there's not a technique or two that resembles it.

If you're looking for animal or mimetic boxing that is truly based on those things, go find a good Hung Ga or Choy Lee Fut or Eagle Claw or Praying Mantis, Fukienese White Crane, etc... school.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Look to Jing wu aka Chin Woo Athletic association in China

There is also a guy in China, if I can find his website I will post it, that is not a Shaolin Monk but he claims to be teaching old school Shaolin Martial arts and from the few videos I have seen of him he is definitely teaching martial arts, some of it, but not all of it, is Shaolin. But it does appear that his basic training is old school Shaolin which translates to very hard training.

 

[govmulestyle]

To all,

I dont know how to make this any clearer:

I am NOT looking for an actual master,

I am NOT looking to find a style that is pre-28,

My instructor claims to have learned shaolin animal kung fu from a disciple of a pre-28 master in vietnam (or surrounding areas) back in the late 70's.

If there is anyone out there who has similar training (trained with a disciple in pre28 kung fu) please PM me.

There has to be a school somewhere that trains in old kung fu.

@mograph - yes, no luck but ty.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Calm down, take it easy and stop yelling (all caps is taken as yelling on the web and will get you nowhere). It is easy to have miss understandings via web posting.

You have now given more information "Vietnam". Thank you.

Many that are old school will not be interested in "comparative analysis" particularly if they are Chinese and trained in China. Also you would need to speak whatever dialect they speak so what you are looking for may be difficult to find.

Now with that said you may be able to find a student of one of them that is willing to talk about it but I cannot point you in that direction.


But I can get you here

This is Shi De Jian, a monk at the Shaolin Temple who is rather found of application as they apply to Shaolin Kung Fu, not Sanshou which is generally taught at Shaolin these days for application

http://www.martialartstube.net/shi-de-jian-at%EF%BB%BF-the-shaolin-temple/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-4UW7RurC8&feature=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c&eurl

However he is in China and I am not sure which generation he is nor do I know if he knows much English.

If I may ask, why are you looking to compare what you have been taught to what others have been taught?

Also it is likely what you have been taught will be slightly to greatly different from what someone else from roughly the same generation has been taught since things change slightly to greatly from sifu to sifu.

And There is still a possibility at Jing wu aka Chin Woo Athletic association or one of it's students too.

 

[clfsean]

To all,

I dont know how to make this any clearer:

I am NOT looking for an actual master,

I am NOT looking to find a style that is pre-28,

My instructor claims to have learned shaolin animal kung fu from a disciple of a pre-28 master in vietnam (or surrounding areas) back in the late 70's.

If there is anyone out there who has similar training (trained with a disciple in pre28 kung fu) please PM me.

There has to be a school somewhere that trains in old kung fu.

@mograph - yes, no luck but ty.

Most of the replies you have received are from people (myself included) practice/train/teach "old kung fu".

We have given suggestions on talking to people & a bit of info about what didn't come from Henan Shaolin. Henan Shaolin is not known for mimetic boxing. Regardless of legends/stories, it's not there. There are animal mimetic sets practiced there now that are "newer" creations, but that was not the crux & focus of Henan Shaolin.

If you're wanting to ask/inquire about mimetic boxing, you need to look to the south, which shares a border with Vietnam (Yunnan & Guanxi).

 

[clfsean]

And There is still a possibility at Jing wu aka Chin Woo Athletic association or one of it's students too.

Try here....

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Vietnam Chin Woo Athletic Association[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]756, Nguyen Trai, Q.5
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam[/FONT]

 

[govmulestyle]

Thank you both, I knew I would beat it out of you sooner or later

clfsean, so I understand this, mimetic boxing originated in south china?

(I was always told there were northern and southern systems of animal forms - I am sure this has been discussed in previous forums....)

thank you for the link.

Xue, the kung fu in the links are similar in deployment as to what I learned.

My quest is twofold; (Xue please read below - this is why i want to compare)

I want verify a systems legitimacy and find the source. My instructor will only say his master was in vietnam (during the vietnam war era). No name, no school, no organization. For now, please respect the anonymity of my trainer/ing.

I was taught a very primitive and visceral form of tiger kung fu. I have seen others perform "tiger" (in various countries) however they always fell short of intensity.
Most martial arts schools teach the movements of the original animal styles for exercise - they have little or no street value and are not practical. (the declination of combat in martial arts is prevalent in almost all schools today IMO).

I believe that martial arts were principle based (in the past) versus the technically driven training of today.

As I have the internet at my fingertips I choose to seek out the origin to simply satisfy my own wants. I understand this may be the equivalent to finding a needle in a haystack due to the fact that the chinese martial arts world is extremely vast and unique to each school.



Thank you for all of the assistance.

 

[govmulestyle]

Vo Lam Vietnam Original Kung Fu

Have either of you heard of this?

BTW, I am going to vietnam next year to search for schools.

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand this may be the equivalent to finding a needle in a haystack due to the fact that the chinese martial arts world is extremely vast and unique to each school.

this may in fact be what you are looking for. good luck.

 

[clfsean]

Thank you both, I knew I would beat it out of you sooner or later

clfsean, so I understand this, mimetic boxing originated in south china?

(I was always told there were northern and southern systems of animal forms - I am sure this has been discussed in previous forums....)

thank you for the link.

No... it'd didn't originate there. It flourished in the south to be sure but it was not the only place of origin. Northern Praying Mantis, Eagle Claw & Monkey (Hou Quan) are the best examples of Northern mimetic boxing. However... none of them originated or were propagated by the Songshan Shaolin temple. They have been, like most things Shaolin, been absorbed by set or technique into Shaolin, but are not Shaolin in origin. This is all pretty well documented & easy to find from multiple sources.

Xue, the kung fu in the links are similar in deployment as to what I learned.

My quest is twofold; (Xue please read below - this is why i want to compare)

I want verify a systems legitimacy and find the source. My instructor will only say his master was in vietnam (during the vietnam war era). No name, no school, no organization. For now, please respect the anonymity of my trainer/ing.

My unrequested $.02 ...

Red flags to me. Everything you mentioned above send red flags up to me. Every CMA I'm familiar with has a well established & documented lineage. What's more... everybody's proud of it!! :drinkbeer

That's not to say it's not exactly what you've been told, but in large part, it is a red flag raising event to most long time practitioners. When people get shady, vague, not really forthcoming... people get suspicious.

From what I've seen of Viet MA's that developed from an originated in China art... they're a bit hodge-podged. I've also seen CMA's kept in Vietnam that are hardly changed & all you see is a Vietnamese practicing CMA. Not unusual at all since I'm an American practicing CMA.

I was taught a very primitive and visceral form of tiger kung fu. I have seen others perform "tiger" (in various countries) however they always fell short of intensity.
Most martial arts schools teach the movements of the original animal styles for exercise - they have little or no street value and are not practical. (the declination of combat in martial arts is prevalent in almost all schools today IMO).

It's kinda hard to make standing broad reaching assertions like that. Animal techniques work just as well as any other technique if practiced properly & applied appropriately. The "Karate Kid crane" is a fine example of NOT being proper or appropriate. However a fishhook with a thumb is a fine example of using an animal shaped (fu jow, lung jow) hand when necessary.

I believe that martial arts were principle based (in the past) versus the technically driven training of today.

Again... hard to support broad ranging statements.

For example... in Choy Lee Fut, we use 10 seeds (theories/principles) to drive everything (at least how I was taught and subsequently teach) done. Technical training comes when giving people the seeds as techniques to practice. As they progress, it moves away from the "technique" to the "response" from the seed that spawned the notion or theory needed. The "technique" is just the physical manifestation of the "seed".

As I have the internet at my fingertips I choose to seek out the origin to simply satisfy my own wants. I understand this may be the equivalent to finding a needle in a haystack due to the fact that the chinese martial arts world is extremely vast and unique to each school.

Thank you for all of the assistance.

No problem but you may want to do a couple of things to help:
- prep for the lack of info on your desired search
- prep for dead ends
- maybe ease up on some ideas you postulated because there's much more to CMA's than what is easily seen or evident

 

[govmulestyle]

sean, understood.

As forums are not great places to express ones complete intent on a subject in a single post, I apologize for the lack of information.

My general thoughts regarding priciple v. technical are exactly as you described - I simply didnt want to deviate from the original context of the post, just offer condensed insight as to my "why." thank you anyway for your clarity.

As to my opinion regarding my singular experience with CMA I stand by it, I believe you clfsean are in the minority of arts that are correctly transmitted (a compliment to you). If there were no differences in how MA were transmitted, the term "mc dojo" would not have manifested. There are many schools that teach techniques that are completely devoid of any principles or theories taught by mentally castrated instructors who simply want to profit.

Red flags,

Again the reason for my campaign. Lineage seems to be something that the masses either care or do not care about. I wholeheartedly do with great fervor. The gentlemans CMA I am inquiring about is a quagmire to say the least, he is shady, vague, etc on many levels however his CMA is quite good. The perplexities surrounding that statement sparked my interest in my search, I hope this is understandable, even acceptable to the reader.

I also believe this is as far as Im going to get on MT. I really appreciate your time with this thread.

If you believe you have anymore information regarding sino-viet arts taught during the 70s please let me know.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Lineage seems to be something that the masses either care or do not care about. I wholeheartedly do with great fervor. The gentlemans CMA I am inquiring about is a quagmire to say the least, he is shady, vague, etc on many levels however his CMA is quite good. The perplexities surrounding that statement sparked my interest in my search, I hope this is understandable, even acceptable to the reader.

Lineage in CMA is a big deal and false lineage claims are not at all uncommon today and have been around for most of Chinese Martial Arts History. But some of those making false claims can actually be good at CMA. And many of those false claims these days occur outside of China because inside Chine the actual lineage holders might find out and the one making false claims could find himself in a bit of a mess. IT has happened in Yiquan (in China), Chen Taijiquan and Yang Taijiquan (outside of China) in recent history. And in these cases the charlatans were called on it by the family or lineage holders.

What I do is traditional Yang style Taijiquan with the MA still intact; my lineage is

Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jianhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > My Sifu > Me

I can also tell you the lineage of the 2 Wing Chun schools I trained at briefly but I cannot tell you my Xingyiquan lineage beyond my last teacher’s teacher.

Point is that generally in the case of someone like my Taiji sifu he has a list given to him by his sifu that has a whole lot of names on it as to who was an actual student of the Yang family up to his sifu's generation. And he has told me of some rather famous frauds out there and then there are those that claim to be a student of Yang Chengfu or Tung Ying Chieh, who may have in fact trained with one of them but only briefly and they were never trained to any depth or considered as an actual student by either of them. As for my last Xingyiquan sifu his lineage is likely true he just did not care about it never asked his sifu and his sifu never talked about it. My Taiji sifu never talked about it to me much until he actually considered me a student of his.

And since coming to MT I have tagged two frauds, one Yang family and one Chen family. There is also a rather legitimate Yang Taiji teacher who in my opinion is highly skilled and he is teaching a form he calls Tung Ying Chieh’s fast form, and he truly believes it is, but it isn’t. The person that taught him lied to him and he does not know.

I take lineage very seriously but you have to understand that if you pursue this you may find something you don’t want to or you may not find anything at all. Eastern CMA people tend to not want to discuss much with outsiders, particularly if you are talking an old Chinese guy that went though the Cultural Revolution. On the flip side you could find someone who knows the person in question and really does not like him much and will tell you the “Truth” as he sees it that is mostly said to discredit the one you are checking out.

Basically it ain’t easy to trace a lineage that starts out as shady