Relationship between Modern Arnis and Balintawak

[Toasty]

Hi Dan,

How would you compare the M.A. empty hands to the Balintawak empty hands? - similarities/differences...

{actually - Tim, Paul or Rich - you guys can answer this too... LOL}



Also, a question for Datu Worden:

I noticed you mentioned in another post about "the Michigan Kuntao guys"... any information regarding them & their location would be greatly appreciated.
(also - what systemn of Kuntao).

Thanks in advance

Rob

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Dan,

How would you compare the M.A. empty hands to the Balintawak empty hands? - similarities/differences...
{actually - Tim, Paul or Rich - you guys can answer this too... LOL}
Thanks in advance

Rob

Hey Rob,

Tim, Paul, or Rich will have to field this question. I have had the least experience in balintawak under Manong Ted due to the distance between us. I haven't seen any balintawak empty hands. Guys?

Yours,
Dan

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi Dan,

How would you compare the M.A. empty hands to the Balintawak empty hands? - similarities/differences...

{actually - Tim, Paul or Rich - you guys can answer this too... LOL}



Also, a question for Datu Worden:

I noticed you mentioned in another post about "the Michigan Kuntao guys"... any information regarding them & their location would be greatly appreciated.
(also - what systemn of Kuntao).

Thanks in advance

Rob

Hi Toasty,

Great question!!!

I am curious of how much of the empty-handed techniques come from Balintawak as well. Also, what are the roots of the Sinawalli/Balintawak boxing drill sets and what was the influence of Panantukan ("Filipino Boxing") to the system?

-Palusut

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Rob,

Can't help you on your balintawak question, but the Michigan
Kuntaw guys are based out of Traverse City! They train under
Maha Guro Brian "Buzz" Smith, his website is www.kuntaw.org !

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Toasty,

I'm one of the Michigan Kuntaw guys Datu was talking about in that post, feel free to PM with any questions not answered by Brian's link to the kuntaw.org website.

 

[arnisador]

Looking at the pink book, I think that the comment about larger motions is dead-on.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Remy was also quite the accomplished striker! I remember in 1989 Buffalo Winter Camp, Remy used my to demonstrate some techniques and I was the recipient of a flurry of kicks ending with a side kick in my armpit.

 

[Black Grass]

Remy was also quite the accomplished striker! I remember in 1989 Buffalo Winter Camp, Remy used my to demonstrate some techniques and I was the recipient of a flurry of kicks ending with a side kick in my armpit.

DP,

Is it fair to say that Prof. striking was basically karate ?

Vince

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

DP,

Is it fair to say that Prof. striking was basically karate ?

Vince

I would say that his striking would be karate influneced. He had also shown me some Sikaran drills to help work on my balance. Having spent so much time around Remy as well as interacting with the FMA community, I would say there was alot of FMA in his striking.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I always felt that Remy's striking abilities were great!
I also feel that people get the impression of his striking
skills as Karate like based on the anyo's! However when
in motion I feel that his striking skills were very, very
FMA based!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Dan Anderson]

DP,

Is it fair to say that Prof. striking was basically karate ?

Vince

Vince,

I'd answer a resounding "No." Having been a karate champion before I met Remy Presas, I'd say there might have been some influence but not a whole lot - not that came out of his movement anyway. His chief hand strikes were the back fist (cane strike #2), palm hook (cane strike #1), and straight palm (karate straight punch or a more horizontally delivered #12 strike). How the hand strikes came off of defensive actions were very cane like as well. His kicking, however, I couldn't say as I have had no exposure to Sikaran so I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Toasty]

Well, thanks for all the replies...

Darn it, of course you Kuntaw guys are all the way up in Traverse City... I am way down in the Detroit area.

Waiting on Tim, Rich or Paul... j/k


see ya
Rob

 

[Datu Kelly S. Worden]

Good comments about the old school material,,, I believe most of it is still evident but just applied differently as the years went by.

Professor used to teach the 12 empty hand targets with a pretty cool flow to them each one complementary to a attachment or lead to throws or locks. Slaps, closed fist, hammer fist, wrist strikes, palm strikes, knife hand strikes,,,

Yes the circles were somewhat larger, striking and locking, yet I believe that was also in his effort to show or make more apparent the connection to his sinawali boxing maneuvers. Also connecting the traditional throws of Judo, Aikido, and such,,,

Looking back, much of his disarming was pretty tight in regards to wrist locks, backward throws,,,

Remember he would teach a series of knife disarming and that was pretty tight,,, started with cross blocks but would dissolve the crossing into more of an attacking pass,,, His palis palis whether stick or empty handed was very fast, leading to lock control.

There was no question Professor possessed serious striking skills, the reverse sinawali empty hand sets all entered with simultaneous check and strike maneuvers, much like wing chun to a degree,,, palm, vertical fist, knife hand,,

I remember sharing a silat video with him and he swore the first five juru's were directly from his reverse sinawali striking sets and demonstrated them as such,,,
(You can hear him now, "Son of a *****, that is my re-berse sinawali set, oh my god, 'dey are calling it silat!?")

Within the anyo you could see his weight displacement pivot changes were very fluid from right to left punch, or even the elbow strikes had a great deal of fluid power transference by just the way he moved a person into the strikes. I did and still do like the anyo # 5 slap check-overhand punch leading to the uppercut,,, pretty valid boxing postures and maneuvers,,,

Referencing his kicking,,, he had some pretty tricky stuff, anyo step behind back kick was a great scissor takedown, years ago he could do it at the waist and later foot trap-knee hook kick scissor take down,,,(that is one of the drawings in the Pink Book) body roll and round kick you in the face very fluidly,,,

Anyo de cadena with the two elbow smash strikes leading to a side kick to the knee with a follow up front kick without setting the foot down demonstrated solid skill and diversity,,,

Most of his hook leg sweeps were intentional nerve destruction kicks that just took your balance and swept you down,,, more of a kick than a sweep,,, sometimes martial artists look at kicking in the point karate prospective,, Professor really did kicking as a way to distract or set you up for his hand strikes or throws, not as isolated kicking strategies,,, in that regard the low line Sikaran or Kuntao energy was being expressed,,,

Also Professor often demonstrated what he credited to "Sambo on the beach" when he was younger,,,

he had a very big bag of tricks all rolled up into Modern Arnis,,, the art within all arts...




Anyway just a few thoughts on the subject...

Datu Kelly

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, thanks for all the replies...

Darn it, of course you Kuntaw guys are all the way up in Traverse City... I am way down in the Detroit area.

Waiting on Tim, Rich or Paul... j/k


see ya
Rob

My Apologies Rob,

I worked on some issues for work over the weekend, and also I am busy with it today. I hope to be done in the next day or so wit the latest crisis.

Note: ** Not a real crisis, just takes time to resolve, and work through, no matter what other people think.

Then I will disassemble both techniques.

 

[Cruentus]

Well, thanks for all the replies...

Darn it, of course you Kuntaw guys are all the way up in Traverse City... I am way down in the Detroit area.

Waiting on Tim, Rich or Paul... j/k


see ya
Rob

Hi Rob,

Well, I don't post in areas other then the ones I moderate much, but because I like ya Rob, I'll respond. WTF, why not...

Rob, a lot of what I will say, you already know, but I am saying it for the benefit of everyone else.

First off, we need to look at the nature of both systems to understand the differences. Balintawak is a stick dueling system. Created by Anciong, it evolved during a time when scores were settled through dueling with the stick. Modern Arnis, on the other hand, is NOT a stick dueling system. It is a system of self-defense. When one understands the purpose of each system, then one can understand the differences and the reasons why they evolved that way.

So, when we look at Balintawak, we find that there really isn't an "empty hand" system per say. Not in the classical sense, anyway. Most of our Balintawak Training is geared towards dueling with someone else, stick vs. stick. If Anciong or one of his students were going to fight, they brought 1 stick. If two players wanted to test each other out, they did so with a stick. So, the focus on knifework, empty-hand work, etc., didn't exist in Balintawak. Now, does this mean that Balintawak players couldn't fight without a stick? No...in fact Manong Ted's students here on this board will recall the tale of a fight Anciong had where his empty hand skills came into play. Each instructor had certain skills in their personal repertoire for fighting empty handed or with other weapons; many of these built off the attributes developed from Balintawak. However, as a system, there is no "Balintawak Empty Hand" per say.

So, to ask about "Balintawak empty hand" is almost a loaded question (you slick SOB... ). The real question would be "How does what Manong Ted teaches for Empty hand compare to Modern Arnis?" We'll get to that answer shortly.

Modern Arnis is a self-defense system rather then a dueling system. Part of the way the Professor Presas taught self-defense was to show how things were "all the same." So, most of Modern Arnis stick work is intended to work the same empty handed (1-12 disarms are a great example). Also, unlike Balintawak, there is a highly developed empty hand system within Modern Arnis. The reason is obvious, and Professor used to say so in his seminars: you aren't going to be walking around the street with a stick. The assumption by Professor was also that you weren't going to be carrying a knife or gun either, as he saw these as tools of death rather then tools of self-defense. So, great value was put into the development of the Modern Arnis empty-hand system, because it was assumed that one would need this the most in a self-defense situation. Had Modern Arnis been a stick dueling system, we probably would not have as developed of a system for empty hand as we do today.

So, what is similar to what Manong Ted teaches for empty hand and Modern Arnis? The "It is all the same" concept is very similar. Manong Ted shows how the empty hand applications are the same as our stick work, and how the skills we have developed with the stick will work if applied to empty hand. This is very much like Modern Arnis. So in concept there are similarities.

Technically, however, they can be very different because we utilize different stick techniques in Balintawak then in Modern Arnis. However, Manong Ted's empty hand trapping and striking is very similar to Modern Arnis. The biggest difference is that Manong Ted doesn't leave as much room for interpretation, where as Modern Arnis is very loose comparatively as to what would be considered an effective bait, trap, or strike. The biggest difference between the two arts, though, would be the use of joint locks in Modern Arnis. Manong Ted has joint locks and throws for sure, but Modern Arnis is very extensive with the joint locking and throwing applications due to Small Circle Jujitsu and Japanese Judo/jujitsu influence. Also, I would say that Modern Arnis all around has much more of an extensive empty hand system considering that the focus of Balintawak is not empty hand.

Finally, I would like to mention something about what I call a "results based" approach. Classic Balintawak is completely results based in that it is based off what will work in a fight (generally, a stick duel), and that is about it. You learn the basics in Abecedario's and Seguida's; then by the time you are in Corridas you are sparring. The sparring isn't constrained by rules even though it is controlled; therefore it is not geared towards winning within a set of rules, but it is geared towards winning in a fight. If a technique doesn't work in real time in a controlled Balintawak sparring session, then we KNOW it is not working in a real fight. Therefore, we work with Manong Ted or each other if we are together and training to correct the mistake so that it will work in real time against a resisting and unpredictable opponent. This results based approach in Balintawak carries over when Manong Ted teaches empty hand applications.

I carry the idea of a results based approach into my Modern Arnis training, as I was blessed to have pretty much always trained this way when I first started Martial Arts in 1985. However, many Modern Arnis people do not train in a results based fashion. By the nature of how Professor Presas taught, he was very dynamic and often did demonstration friendly techniques on cooperative Uke's, often relying on pain compliance for effect. Remy Presas could fight and taught a lot of things that would work in a fight. However, he also was a dynamic presenter and would often demo things that looked sweet or got a laugh, but wouldn't be something that even he would attempt to pull off if he were attacked. A lot of Modern Arnis is done through drills and demonstrations, where you get a lot of theory rather then an actual understanding of what will work in a fight, under stress, against a resisting and unpredictable opponent. So, in Balintawak, empty hand or otherwise, there isn't as much theory as much as there is, "This is what gets the best results." Modern Arnis on the other hand you will get a great diversity, depending on who you talk too, in theory and claims (and arguments even) as to how it is or how it is supposed to be. Some Modern Arnis people train their Modern Arnis in a results based fashion, but many don't. So, depending on whom you train with in Modern Arnis, you could run into a great variety of differences in theory and approaches. This diversity in theory doesn't exist so much in Manong Ted's Balintawak due to the very specific way in which he teaches, and due to the results based approach.

Well, I hope I answered some of your questions.

Take care,

Paul Janulis

 

[Dan Anderson]

Paul,

Good post, especially on the differences between Modern Arnis and Balintawak eskrima.

Yours,
Dan

PS - Been "bombed" lately?

 

[Cruentus]

Paul,

Good post, especially on the differences between Modern Arnis and Balintawak eskrima.

Yours,
Dan

Thanks Dan.

PS - Been "bombed" lately?

lol...no....but I am sure that is only a matter of time...

Paul

 

[Toasty]

Paul,

Excellent response... especially the point that M.A. has a rather well developed empty hand syllabus vs Balintawak's being more a response off what one does with the stick.

I am interested to see if Rich & Tim feel the same way...



p.s. one of these days I'm gonna have to try this Modern Arnis stuff out - see how it fits in my " mixing bowl"...


see ya

Rob

 

[Mao]

I gotta say, it does sound like there are some "issues" with modern arnis and you , paul.
It may because of the way you understood or were taught because you were so young.
Having fought point system and full contact and been involved in non sport oriented styles as well, and being years older, my understanding, as well as the way Prof. and I would work at my house or in hotels was probably much different than the way he would work with a youngster, or teenager.
Modern arnis is very results oriented. I was his whipping post more than once. I know others were as well. Tapping out never helped.
Of course there are theories and drills. How else does one train the various attributes. That is the same in any style. Professoinal athletes train daily whether it's batting, pitching, kicking field goals, slap shots, bag drills, pick your arena. One must train attributes, footwork, striking, power generation, timing, ballance, distance etc..
As for the MT hand of modern arnis, it is very alive and dynamic and worth the effort to explore and pull out of it everything you can, same with the anyos.
xo,
Dan McConnell

 

[Dan Anderson]

Yikes! I have been mentioned as possibly agreeing with Kelly! :erg: Maybe the world is flat, after all. Since I have trained with Remy Presas and Ted Buot, I'll add in my two cents worth into the mixing bowl.

First, I don't think Paul has an underlying disdain for Modern Arnis people. He has more of a preference for balintawak. There are lots of drills and actions in Modern Arnis that ARE NOT directly results based, i.e. what will get you through the fight. That being said, I think the very same drills DO teach cane and body manipulation WHICH DO add to one's skills which WILL get you through the fight. As to whether Modern Arnis players have "game" or not, as usual, it lies within the practitioner and not the art.

From seeing Prof. Presas' first written materials and how they were pretty much how he taught them in the early seminars, I think he developed a lot of his empty hands back in the PI and they are not so much an American add on.

Why an empty hand post has come down to stick fighting came out of the question regarding balintawak empty hands and the clarification between Balintawak and Modern Arnis.

From what I have seen and experienced, the balintawak "controlled sparring" is based on the "left turn at Albuquerque," the cockeyed move that comes out of nowhere and dealing with that. Here I may be way off base as I am a novice in balintawak.

This next one physically hurts. :ultracool

Dan Anderson might actually agree with me on this subject, “Some people approach martial arts in an effort to try and learn to become a fighter, others are natural instinctual fighters from day one!”

Yes, true. In my own family, my older brother, Don, was the natural fighter. I had to learn how to be one.

More pain. :uhoh:

Again Dan Anderson might actually agree with me here as well,,, “you missed some serious energy apparently when you were not old enough to feel his wrath, I did not miss it, I got it very directly”

Actually, I think Paul did train directly under Remy and yes, if you did not feel him personally, you really missed something. Same with Prof. Wally Jay.

“I was never a go along with it kind of guy, still do not (what do ya think Dan?)[/i] Kelly, you're actually a pusssycat. Once you get over innate shyness and your unwillingness to commit your views publically, people will get to know and love you. :rofl:

Kelly - back to serious discussion for me. Question: do you have any direct Balintawak experience and if so, which "clan?" I'm curious.

Good thread but gotta go right now. I'll be back.

Yours,
Dan Anderson