Real Knife Defense

[Em MacIntosh]

I'm flying blind here, guys. What do you think is real? Anyone had real experience against a knife weilder? Good books for the subject? Real ways to practice? (how eften does a guy do a wide overhand stab?!). I have no idea except that it'll probably be in me before I know for sure he's got it. (I also know running is the best option, we're assuming it's not an option). Thanks, guys.

 

[arnisador]

I expect to be covering this at the WMAA Camp this weekend. Bottom line, I'm a believer in the "both hands on the wheel" theory of grabbing the knife hand with both hands, taking it close to his body where's his arm is weak, softening him up with knees, then taking away the knife.

But...it depends on the situation!

 

[SKB]

I'm flying blind here, guys. What do you think is real? Anyone had real experience against a knife weilder? Good books for the subject? Real ways to practice? (how eften does a guy do a wide overhand stab?!). I have no idea except that it'll probably be in me before I know for sure he's got it. (I also know running is the best option, we're assuming it's not an option). Thanks, guys.

I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing but I have been involved in a few knife situations. Got a couple of scars to remind me. If someone wants to just walk up to you and drive a knife into you or slash you with a blade and walk away their is little to do. To stop this from happening you should work on your awareness of your surroundings. A situation with a knife works the same as any other situation. Some thing comes before the fight.

My advice is to remember you are involved with the whole person not just the knife. Kind of hard to think about but try it when you train. You are fighting the person not the tool in their hand. As far as what types of attacks. Their is no set type of attacks. Their grip will give you some idea. Held straight out they can slash and stab, underhand they are more likely to try and stab the weapon into you using overhead strikes. Kind of a simple answer but I did not want to write to long of an answer.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Run. It's a safe bet that you'll get cut if there's ever a knife involved. Flee, mortal, flee in fear.

Still, it's good to have some skills if flight to evade injury is impossible. I'd recommend any of the FMA arts..they focus on blades and sticks, and are the guys with the experience to back up their claims. Krav Maga and Systema have some pretty okay techniques, too.

 

[blackxpress]

Depending on the skill of the attacker, you're probably going to get cut. If the attacker is a skilled knife fighter you're in trouble. If you have to throw a block, try to block with the bony part of the forearm. Otherwise the knife could severe the tendons, nerves, arteries, etc., and cause you to lose control of your hands. Then you're toast for sure.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I expect to be covering this at the WMAA Camp this weekend. Bottom line, I'm a believer in the "both hands on the wheel" theory of grabbing the knife hand with both hands, taking it close to his body where's his arm is weak, softening him up with knees, then taking away the knife.

But...it depends on the situation!

Both hands on the wheel was how I learned it too. I just haven't found anyone who'll train realistically with a knife against me. I sat out of another knife defense drill because I refused to use the funny looking, irrealistic attacks. Overhanded sure, but not a big arc, more like stabstabstabstab with the elbow bent. I knife is as quick as a fist. I try to think of how I would use a knife and it sure isn't like they have in class. At least we weren't taught how to kick it out of someone's hand.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I expect to be covering this at the WMAA Camp this weekend. Bottom line, I'm a believer in the "both hands on the wheel" theory of grabbing the knife hand with both hands, taking it close to his body where's his arm is weak, softening him up with knees, then taking away the knife.

But...it depends on the situation!

Definately a sound and sensible approach! The reality of knife violence is that it is possible and can happen everywhere. It happened just this Saturday night in Alma, Michigan, small town USA! A man was watching a fight between two women and he was stabbed. They are currently looking for the suspect.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Brian, I was hoping you'd show up. Have you got any advice?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The best advice I could give you would to not be there.
This could be because you avoid being in certain places, areas
or around certain types of people. Or it could be that you
felt an imminent attack coming and got out of dodge. either
way if you are not there you cannot be hurt.

After that if you can, get an equalizer of some sort whether
it be a knife, stick, club, firearm, etc. (a better tool is always
a good idea)

If nothing is available and you have to go hand to hand then
hopefully your training will come through in the moment. As
a precursor to this analyze your training to be sure that it
addresses the needs of dealing with an attacker with an edge
weapon. If it does not then I think you should augment your
training with experienced instructors so that it does.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Having trained with some very good people, I have pretty much decided if you can't touch them with a training blade you WILL NOT stand a chance empty handed.

There are things that can help against a less adept persons, but a good player dictates the range and you will be cut to ribbons and leaking from everywhere before you realize it.

A stop hit to the eyes then two hands on the knife is one thing that can work.
Passing the blade into them can work.

Another thing is to get past the point of the weapon if possible. Not all blades cut well but it takes very little to poke holes in you.

 

[Blindside]

I expect to be covering this at the WMAA Camp this weekend. Bottom line, I'm a believer in the "both hands on the wheel" theory of grabbing the knife hand with both hands, taking it close to his body where's his arm is weak, softening him up with knees, then taking away the knife.

But...it depends on the situation!

From the inside I tend to "snake wrap" their weapon arm with my arm on that side, I get alot of control that way and more control of their body than two arms on the weapon limb., and it gives me more weapons to hurt them with. I dont' go for disarms much, I'm more interested in securing the weapon followed by shutting down the CPU. From the outside it it is usually a tricep grab to get control of the weapon arm followed by *something.*

Edit: This is assuming I'm in close, "past the point of the blade" as Mr. Beldnarick put it, it is the job of my footwork to get me to that place, backed up by my ability to pass the knife.

Lamont

 

[Hawke]

If the person is good with a knife, you don't know about the knife until you start leaking...(got this from others).

For knife fighting info check out

Datu Kelly S. Worden (http://www.kellyworden.com/)
Guru Brain "Buzz" Smith (http://www.nmc.edu/~bsmith/)
Grand Master Remy Presas (http://www.modernarnis.com/)
Mike Pick (going to have to google him)

Hope this helps. In California we have some funky laws regarding knives. Google the knife laws for your area.

Cheers.

PS. Yes I did stole Blindside's quote. hehe

 

[Steel Tiger]

I'm flying blind here, guys. What do you think is real? Anyone had real experience against a knife weilder? Good books for the subject? Real ways to practice? (how eften does a guy do a wide overhand stab?!). I have no idea except that it'll probably be in me before I know for sure he's got it. (I also know running is the best option, we're assuming it's not an option). Thanks, guys.

Knives are fast, lethal, and sinister. They appear and disappear min the blink of an eye. If you go up against one unarmed you should be prepared to get cut (not necessarily a debilitating or lethal blow). Finding a weapon of some sort would be best, but if that's not an option you need to get in close, get control of the blade, and then work the guy hard.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

From the inside I tend to "snake wrap" their weapon arm with my arm on that side, I get alot of control that way and more control of their body than two arms on the weapon limb., and it gives me more weapons to hurt them with. I dont' go for disarms much, I'm more interested in securing the weapon followed by shutting down the CPU. From the outside it it is usually a tricep grab to get control of the weapon arm followed by *something.*

Edit: This is assuming I'm in close, "past the point of the blade" as Mr. Beldnarick put it, it is the job of my footwork to get me to that place, backed up by my ability to pass the knife.

Lamont

Nice post Lamont!

The most interesting thing about it is you are NOT talking about defending. You are talking about attacking the attacker.

That means you are one of those people that are very hard to touch with a training knife.

 

[arnisador]

From the inside I tend to "snake wrap" their weapon arm with my arm on that side, I get alot of control that way and more control of their body than two arms on the weapon limb., and it gives me more weapons to hurt them with.

This can work very well, and I do hate having two of my hands occupied on one of theirs. But, with a big knife especially I worry if the knife could slip and get me in the back or something. I prefer to have better control, personally. If you get the snake wrap tight, of course, it's great.

I dont' go for disarms much, I'm more interested in securing the weapon followed by shutting down the CPU. From the outside it it is usually a tricep grab to get control of the weapon arm followed by *something.*

After gaining control I emphasize lots of knee strikes and such. If that's enough, or a takedown appears, great! Otherwise, I feel that at some point one must disarm--hopefully by hitting them enough that they're groggy enough that you can basically just take the knife.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Great Posts guys. Thanks for your info. Another thing to consider is that there are knives and then there are KNIVES. Ice-pick, SRK, tanto..., aussie/rambo/steaknife...

 

[Blindside]

This can work very well, and I do hate having two of my hands occupied on one of theirs. But, with a big knife especially I worry if the knife could slip and get me in the back or something. I prefer to have better control, personally. If you get the snake wrap tight, of course, it's great.

Alot of times when I snake the arm I'm fairly high on the arm, usually the other person pulls back, to free the arm, I let them, and then secure the snake wrap right above the wrist. It then becomes the "monkey and the bottle" where as long as they have the grip on the knife they arm can't pull free. Also when the wrap is that close there isn't much room to maneuver the knife, particularly in sak-sak (saber grip) where all they can do is tip rip, if they are in pakal (icepick) they can do more, but not compared to if they had the arm free.

 

[Blindside]

That means you are one of those people that are very hard to touch with a training knife.

I wish my training partners thought so.

 

[Blindside]

Great Posts guys. Thanks for your info. Another thing to consider is that there are knives and then there are KNIVES. Ice-pick, SRK, tanto..., aussie/rambo/steaknife...

Actually, they type of knife doesn't really matter. It will either thrust or slash, or both, the methodology doesn't really change between how you deal with the blade. The biggest difference I find with different sized weapons is that the smaller ones are harder to disarm, but as I said before, I'm not big into disarming, oh, and more importantly the smaller knives are harder to see.

 

[thetruth]

As previously mentioned 2 hands on the wheel is a fairly widely regarded way to go. It's what I was taught. Then depending on your attackers movements what follows up could be anything. As far as running goes this is far more dangerous from a knife attacker than an unarmed one. You would want to be 1000000% sure you could outrun them and you knew where you were going or you will be in serious strife. I'd much rather keep my eyes on the attacker and his weapon.

Cheers
Sam:asian: