React to an attack or Pre-Empt it? Any advice?

[Jenna]

Hello all my lovely peeps!

It was horribly rainy this evening in Bruges. The sky descended to little above head height. I've never been in weather like that before. I said to someone that everything looked all sort of Matrix green - "Vert comme la Matrice" ... "Grün wie die Matrix??" ... “Es gibt keinen löffel????” but they just looked at me like I needed a hug. And I probably do. It’s like this, I'm debating what to do with myself. Run off and hide in a corner til the stars are in proper alignment or come out right now with bootblack on my cheekbones and phasers set to kill?

Ok, enough piffle - a simple question: using your MA in a real, off-mats or outside confrontation, at what point in your opponents initial move do you make your opening? How long do you wait before you unleash your counter technique?

In my unimpressive life, I'm sensing impending trouble right now. Do I pre-empt the IMAGINED threat or do I react to the ACTUAL event? There’s an answer in the defensive timing analogy I’m certain. But after reading all this, I excuse you for wondering what I'm taking. Or maybe wondering if I've forgotten today's dose Maybe I need to go to the kiddie zoo tomorrow and stroke some llamas, ha!

All my clever and learned friends, your sage advice will make someone happy

Yr mst obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[mantis]

1. you need a boyfriend (not for self defense, unless you want to practice oh him, but for the little weather situation you described)
2. the best self defense is NOT to be there in the first place. i.e. try to avoid situations as much as you can
3. you mentioned you are a mechanic, right? i dont know how hard it is to carry the wrench in your purse?

(only # 2 is not kidding)

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

O, ye begging at the door of wisdom!
(I can be every bit as arcane as you)

My sensei teaches that my art is for defence. That means, to me, that I must wait for the aggressive act. By definition, if I strike first, I am the aggressor.

And, yes, someone pulling a weapon on you is an aggressive act.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

You can be pre-emptive by positioning alone.....putting yourself in a position that makes it difficult for the attacker to actually attack, facilitating an easier response.
I look at it this way......If I am in danger and there is no escape, my attacker will know my intentions.

 

[Kacey]

Well, I tend to agree with Mantis - avoidance is the best form of self-defense. Other than that, it's difficult to give specific instruction that covers any and all possible scenarios; I've been nervous about my situation plenty of times that I wasn't attacked, and I don't know if it was my awareness of the situation that prevented the attack or if I was nervous about a potential situation that didn't exist. While the best defense is a good offense, the problem with a pre-emptive strike is that there is the risk that the person who is making you nervous may not actually be intending to attack you - and then where are you?

Maybe if you can provide a little more detail about the particular scenario (if there is one) that is making you nervous?

 

[Jenna]

1. you need a boyfriend (not for self defense, unless you want to practice oh him, but for the little weather situation you described)
2. the best self defense is NOT to be there in the first place. i.e. try to avoid situations as much as you can
3. you mentioned you are a mechanic, right? i dont know how hard it is to carry the wrench in your purse?

(only # 2 is not kidding)

#1. Ahh, tell me you're not already taken mister mantis? A true defender of honour - what the world's been waiting for indeed

#2. Not a difficult thing perhaps but assume I'm a little naive. I am "there in the first place" already. too late for hindsight. I sense an attack may be imminent - literal or metaphorical, the answer should be the same. When do I move?

#3. I recall mentioning that yes. Am I carrying my wrench to hit someone? Or am I carrying it to help someone in trouble?

#4. Why?

*** Neither #1 #2 or #3 merit serious reply.

*** #4 is the only serious question I have for you

Yak atcha L8r
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

O, ye begging at the door of wisdom!
(I can be every bit as arcane as you)

My sensei teaches that my art is for defence. That means, to me, that I must wait for the aggressive act. By definition, if I strike first, I am the aggressor.

And, yes, someone pulling a weapon on you is an aggressive act.

Good day Mister Egg,

I wonder are you hard boiled?? I suspect from your avatar, you are sunny side up, no??

You wouldn't say I was arcane if you saw my frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt, ha! Oh I'm the belle of the ball arriving on me penny farthing, cor blimey guvnor.

Your sensei is a prudent lady or gentleman and your definition is absolutely 100% correct. My question to you then is how do you know your reaction will be sufficiently quick that you will not become the victim?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[stickarts]

In a real fight scenario, it would depend upon what you felt your strengths were vs. the opponents. There are some opponents where my best strategy was to initiate the attack, however, in some cases, for example ,opponents with a reach advantage, I personally fought better by letting them advance as I countered.

In a struggle in life, I think using the philosophies that you have been practicing for 12 years in your aikido is the real "you" and your strongest ally! To use the energy thrown at you to work for you. This is what fits you!

...and I have a feeling your life is more impressive than you give yourself credit for!

 

[elder999]

Hello all my lovely peeps!



Ok, enoughpiffle - a simple question: usingyour MA in a real, off-mats or outside confrontation, at what point in your opponents initial move do you make your opening? How long do you wait before you unleash your counter technique?

In my unimpressive life, I'm sensing impending trouble right now. Do I pre-empt the IMAGINED threat or do I react to the ACTUAL event? There’s an answer in the defensive timing analogy I’m certain.

Firstly, Jenna, forgive me for not replying to your charming intro thread.Hi, I'm elder999, curmudgeonly mad scientist (really!) and near lifelong martial artist, with, sadly, a little bit of real, off-mats, outside confrontations.

I understand that you're traveling alone, but maybe you have a companion. First off, I'd say listen to the what the voices in your head tell you. If you sense impending trouble, pay attention, and try to get away from it, unless we're talking about some undercurrent of
non-specific free-form anxiety. Someday you should read Gavin DeBecker's The Gift of Fear; it tells us that people who sense impending trouble are usually right......or on drugs, or off their meds.:lol:

Secondly, the standard "real world, off-mats, outside confrontation" self-defense advice is to preempt. Ugly, sad and true-if they're in your space, and you don't have an escape, don't wait for the first move, make it yourself. That doesn't fit so well for an aikidoka, and it's not at all what I think we should aspire to as martial artists and human beings, but it's what the majority of the so-called "real world" training "experts" advise, and statistically, they're correct-morally and legally, though, that advice is sometimes hard to swallow.

Next, as a woman, and aikidoka (and I went to school with,and dearly loved this woman so your status resonates with me) I'd say that you're probably not equipped for phyical preemption-I'd really concentrate on getting and staying away from the problem, and maybe carrying a wrench isn't such a bad idea, though a screwdriver might serve you better, depending upon your size......

....and only the bit about being on drugs or off meds is kidding at all, I'm afraid. Stay safe.

 

[Jenna]

You can be pre-emptive by positioning alone.....putting yourself in a position that makes it difficult for the attacker to actually attack, facilitating an easier response.
I look at it this way......If I am in danger and there is no escape, my attacker will know my intentions.

Hey there Shawn,
Thank you, you sound like someone with a bit of grunt in your engine Positioning? That's interesting. Are you talking specifically about moving out of range or something even more clever? Assuming things look as if they're ready to kick off for real. Assuming you're against a wall. Assuming you're confined. NO-one's actually made a move. But your adrenaline fuelled fight senses are twitching. Are you going first?

And I agree with your closing comment.

Don't you like Cats Shawn?? And don't tell me yes but only with fried rice, LOL

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Good day Mister Egg,

I wonder are you hard boiled?? I suspect from your avatar, you are sunny side up, no??

You wouldn't say I was arcane if you saw my frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt, ha! Oh I'm the belle of the ball arriving on me penny farthing, cor blimey guvnor.

Your sensei is a prudent lady or gentleman and your definition is absolutely 100% correct. My question to you then is how do you know your reaction will be sufficiently quick that you will not become the victim?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

Many would say a few seconds shy of three minutes.

Frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt? Don't tease, my dear. We're professionals here

As to the meat of the post, you don't. The crux of the problem will lie in the emotional content of the individuals involved. You are, hopefully, training to move calmly and deliberately. Oftentimes, an attacker will be running a little steamier, higher on adreneline and considerably less controlled. That is a high upper hand that martial artist has in a conflict.

By the way, your missing vowels are ou iie u ea
and one consonant, n

 

[Jenna]

Well, I tend to agree with Mantis - avoidance is the best form of self-defense. Other than that, it's difficult to give specific instruction that covers any and all possible scenarios; I've been nervous about my situation plenty of times that I wasn't attacked, and I don't know if it was my awareness of the situation that prevented the attack or if I was nervous about a potential situation that didn't exist. While the best defense is a good offense, the problem with a pre-emptive strike is that there is the risk that the person who is making you nervous may not actually be intending to attack you - and then where are you?

Maybe if you can provide a little more detail about the particular scenario (if there is one) that is making you nervous?

Hey there Kacey

Thank you for your reply. And yes, the pre-emptive strike will turn me into the attacker. My question to you: is there ever a case where this is NOT a bad thing?

Me? I am not an attacker. My art is not an attacking art, there are few techniques designed that way. On the other hand, the threat at this stage may be imagined.

The situation can be taken as a real physical threat. Or it may be my hypersensitivity. I cannot tell exactly which is why I am keen for a strategy that will neither render me open nor turn me into the aggressor.

I'm not certain if you are familiar but in that respect, I keep thinking of Michael Douglas in Falling Down?? At the end his character asks "I'M the bad guy? How did that happen?"

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

In a real fight scenario, it would depend upon what you felt your strengths were vs. the opponents. There are some opponents where my best strategy was to initiate the attack, however, in some cases, for example ,opponents with a reach advantage, I personally fought better by letting them advance as I countered.

In a struggle in life, I think using the philosophies that you have been practicing for 12 years in your aikido is the real "you" and your strongest ally! To use the energy thrown at you to work for you. This is what fits you!

...and I have a feeling your life is more impressive than you give yourself credit for!

Hey Frankie Sticks!

Frank, I like the idea of letting them come and counter. This is my style. I keep checking my distance, never let them come inside my circle, instead I enter theirs quickly and try to disrupt their balance. That's how I work it. If I've got somebody right up in my face then something has gone wrong somewhere. I didn't see him coming, my situational awareness was impared, I dunno, hindsight doesn't help sometimes.

My question for you Frank is do you still have the same fighting ethic you have on the mats as you do when it happens for real? Have you a stronger strategy in your head for a wallet mugging?

Thanks,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[stickarts]

I would have to say my mind set is different. on the mats, you are learning together and don't really want to hurt anyone.
if someone is trying to maim or kill you, it comes down to survival, them or you. You do what it takes to win.
you do everything you can to avoid the confrontation, if unavoidable, you do whatever it takes to win it.
Hopefully one has the opportunity to subdue without harming.

 

[Kacey]

Hey there Kacey

Thank you for your reply. And yes, the pre-emptive strike will turn me into the attacker. My question to you: is there ever a case where this is NOT a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing if you're right, and you really were at risk... but what if you're not? Awareness and avoidance are the key - the first level of pre-emptive strike is avoid the situation in the first place; the second level is to be aware that you are at risk in a situation and leave. If neither of those are possible, then you need to be prepared to defend yourself - now, are there times when you might (physically) be better off attacking first? Possibly... but it's highly unlikely that you are going to be better off legally, because a pre-emptive strike leaves you at risk for becoming the legal attacker, and then anything your opponent does, up to a point, might fall under self-defense, depending on the situation.

I'll also say this - granting that I lead a fairly quiet life, and don't often go into situations where self-defense is required, I have learned to be more aware of my surroundings than I used to be. In college, I used to walk around campus wearing headphones and reading a book, with just enough attention on what I was doing and where I was going to avoid running into people and solid objects (trees, building, etc.). I was a prime target, a victim waiting to be attacked. Now I no longer do such things, and my risk of being attacked has decreased immensely - so in that sense, I consider avoidance and awareness to be a pre-emptive strike. As far as the question I think you're really asking - I suppose there are some situations in which one might need to strike first rather than waiting to be attacked, but as I said before, they are so individual that I cannot give a specific example; it depends too much on the details of the situation and the people involved. I find it to be more likely to need to attack before being attacked in a situation which involves someone who had attacked you before - for example, I was, some years ago, stalked and harassed by a man I refused to date, and ended up filing a restraining order; depending on your definition, filing the order was a pre-emptive strike because, unlike many of the other filers (all women) who filed the day that I did, I had never been struck by the person who was stalking me - nor was I going to wait until he did. There are certain circumstances in which I might have physically attacked him had he come near me - luckily, that did not happen, but I did have a plan in case it did, especially as he had been a competitive karateka when he was younger (at the national level), and was over a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than I was. But that's the only time in the 19 years I've been in TKD that I've even considered such a thing.

Me? I am not an attacker. My art is not an attacking art, there are few techniques designed that way. On the other hand, the threat at this stage may be imagined.

The situation can be taken as a real physical threat. Or it may be my hypersensitivity. I cannot tell exactly which is why I am keen for a strategy that will neither render me open nor turn me into the aggressor.

Only you are close enough to this situation to determine if becoming the aggressor will be necessary. Not knowing more about the situation, I can only suggest that you be wary, and, if appropriate, consider legal action against this person as a preventative; if you contact the authorities about your concerns now, and something does happen that causes you to damage this person, there will then be a record of previous concern, which won't help during any actual altercation, but could help should you need to legal support later.

I'm not certain if you are familiar but in that respect, I keep thinking of Michael Douglas in Falling Down?? At the end his character asks "I'M the bad guy? How did that happen?"

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

I have seen that movie, and I know what you mean - sometimes events move around us and we end up in situations not of our own making, but that seem otherwise from the outside.

Good luck to you, and hopefully you are paranoid rather than correct - but just remember: Just because I'm paranoid DOES NOT mean that they're not out to get me.

 

[Jenna]

Firstly, Jenna, forgive me for not replying to your charming intro thread.Hi, I'm elder999, curmudgeonly mad scientist (really!) and near lifelong martial artist, with, sadly, a little bit of real, off-mats, outside confrontations.

I understand that you're traveling alone, but maybe you have a companion. First off, I'd say listen to the what the voices in your head tell you. If you sense impending trouble, pay attention, and try to get away from it, unless we're talking about some undercurrent of
non-specific free-form anxiety. Someday you should read Gavin DeBecker's The Gift of Fear; it tells us that people who sense impending trouble are usually right......or on drugs, or off their meds.:lol:

Secondly, the standard "real world, off-mats, outside confrontation" self-defense advice is to preempt. Ugly, sad and true-if they're in your space, and you don't have an escape, don't wait for the first move, make it yourself. That doesn't fit so well for an aikidoka, and it's not at all what I think we should aspire to as martial artists and human beings, but it's what the majority of the so-called "real world" training "experts" advise, and statistically, they're correct-morally and legally, though, that advice is sometimes hard to swallow.

Next, as a woman, and aikidoka (and I went to school with,and dearly loved this woman so your status resonates with me) I'd say that you're probably not equipped for phyical preemption-I'd really concentrate on getting and staying away from the problem, and maybe carrying a wrench isn't such a bad idea, though a screwdriver might serve you better, depending upon your size......

....and only the bit about being on drugs or off meds is kidding at all, I'm afraid. Stay safe.

Hi there mister Elder999
999?? Did you know, for emergency services in the UK we don't dial 911 but rather 999. I am indeed hoping this is not an emergency but the imagining of an addled mind perhaps. I'm inclined to listen to what you say having read some of your erudite posts as a visitor to this site previously.

The voices in the head? Well, yes, they're definitely saying run, or at least walk away quickly. The legs however are asking where to exactly miss-oh-so-smart?

The pre-empt advice frightens me a little. Not because of any legalities. But because I am the person who carries a wrench or screwdriver for servicing discs and calipers. I do not feel capable of carrying tools like these for any other purpose.

It's a little hard to explain but if I pre-empt and get it wrong I make things go very bad indeed. If I wait and react I risk not being sufficiently quick, or missing the target.

Is there a working compromise that you can think of? Thank you.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[green meanie]

Ok, enoughpiffle - a simple question: usingyour MA in a real, off-mats or outside confrontation, at what point in your opponents initial move do you make your opening? How long do you wait before you unleash your counter technique?

Okay, here's my take on this. If you see or know someone coming at you and they're coming with bad intentions. DO NOT wait for them to get to you. The bad intentions ARE the attack. That WAS the first move. Don't allow them to make another. Put on your war face and go forward. You pick the place and when you get there strike first, strike hard, strike fast, and you don't stop until you've beaten the will to fight right out of them.

:asian:

 

[Jenna]

Many would say a few seconds shy of three minutes.

Frock coat, frilly cuffs and herringbone skirt? Don't tease, my dear. We're professionals here

As to the meat of the post, you don't. The crux of the problem will lie in the emotional content of the individuals involved. You are, hopefully, training to move calmly and deliberately. Oftentimes, an attacker will be running a little steamier, higher on adreneline and considerably less controlled. That is a high upper hand that martial artist has in a conflict.

I really, really like that Mister Egg. Thank you for it

Yes I am confident I can throw people around. I'm doubting myself though that what I can do really equates with what I NEED to do - if what I can do is enough? Do you ever have those doubts Mister Egg?

I have little trouble controlling adrenaline, believe it or not it's a medical condition I have that I'm sure is of no relevance. Point is, I'm strangely calm under perceived stress which is an odd benefit arising from a medical malpractice... But still, I am sensing a threat and am concerned that the "upper hand" you refer to will not be enough.

As I say, I don't want to sound all hyper like I'm running around checking all the windows here. *shivers*

Bigger opponents are one thing - we take our chances with those mismatches. What do you do Mister Egg when the only conclusion you can draw is that you are outgunned from the outset? Does that cloud your judgement? Are you more inclined to be pre-emptive? Or do you wait in a place of calm and yet have a harder strategy for your eventual counter?

Thank you.

And yes, I'm experiencing a problem with my vwls. I'm on a real slow old laptop bought before they had vwls on kbds and I'm struggling to link my way through pages, bouncing my signal out of Colombia and lord knows where and retyping everything in between, so please don't drw @tt3nt10n to my m1ss1ng v0w3ls

Anyway I'm part of the txt generation I cant spel nor can i put 2gethr NE propr sntnses - welcome to the future!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna

 

[tshadowchaser]

I qtess it would depnd on what occured to cause the situation and my knowing there was no escape from violence.
I have never struck the first blow but I have posistioned myslef without raiseing my hands or or showing a agressive body posistion so as to be able to protect myslef
Givineing one slef a little room or lessening your own body suface that can be attacked is always a good thought.
Now if the situation is one where you will most likely be in danger of life or limb then hell yes take the first shot

 

[KenpoTex]

If you have determined that there is an imminent threat to your safety and de-escalation or escape are not options, you can, and should, preempt with an attack of your own. It would be stupid to wait for the person to actually launch his/her attack. Remember, action beats reaction.

Preempting the attack does not make you the agressor, you're still responding to an articulable threat to your safety. You're just not waiting for him to throw the punch, lunge with the knife, or pull the trigger.