Prosecuting Kids As Adults

[MJS]

Your thoughts?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22055708/

A generation after America decided to get tough on kids who commit crimes — sometimes locking them up for life — the tide may be turning.
States are rethinking and, in some cases, retooling juvenile sentencing laws. They’re responding to new research on the adolescent brain, and studies that indicate teens sent to adult court end up worse off than those who are not: They get in trouble more often, they do it faster and the offenses are more serious.

I'll post my thoughts later on.

 

[Andrew Green]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/us/17teenage.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

In December, the United Nations took up a resolution calling for the abolition of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for children and young teenagers. The vote was 185 to 1, with the United States the lone dissenter.

I think it's about time you southern folks caught up with the rest of the world

 

[Kreth]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/us/17teenage.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


I think it's about time you southern folks caught up with the rest of the world

I'll take the UN seriously when they start paying their parking tickets.

 

[CoryKS]

I'll take the UN seriously when they start paying their parking tickets.

Or when their approach to any problem actually works. Please excuse me if I don't hold my breath.

 

[MarkBarlow]

I'm opposed to hard time for non-violent offenses but think first degree murder, regardless of the age of the assailant, deserves a life sentence or death. The American criminal system (not just in the South) has too many problems to go into here but the fact that we top the world list of incarcerated citizens screams that something fundamental is not working and needs to be retooled.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'm Canadian, you're all southern from my POV

 

[MJS]

I'm opposed to hard time for non-violent offenses but think first degree murder, regardless of the age of the assailant, deserves a life sentence or death. The American criminal system (not just in the South) has too many problems to go into here but the fact that we top the world list of incarcerated citizens screams that something fundamental is not working and needs to be retooled.

For the most part, I'm in full agreement with what you said here. I do think though, that the system needs to be re-worked. IMHO, if it is a non violent crime, I can see community service, probation, etc., but it if people are going to start being repeat offenders, then I think that the time should be increased, regardless of the crime, due to the fact that the message is obviously not being received.

Things of a serious nature....murder, home invasions, armed robbery...should be hard time.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'm Canadian, you're all southern from my POV

I go south to to go to Canada.

"Those hot summer nights in South Detroit" aka Windosr.

Now onto the topic of the thread.

If the parents do not have the authority or capability to proper punish or control the children then the children can be raised, (* Note: I said Can be, not shall be *) in a manner that they do not understand the effects of tehir actions. They do not understnad their responibilites to society, and not jsut to them.

But in today's society, where no one can touch anyone else, and no one can say anything that might make their feelings hurt. The fact that psychologists have a term called "Starter Marriages" and other issues it seems that everyone is out for only themselves. So why would not the children also learn this? And only think about their immediate desires and wants. Of course lots of children do not do this, but enough do.



Yet, in a perfect world, would there not still be some that just did not fit in. Would that not be just part of life and random occurances?

 

[Steel Tiger]

If the parents do not have the authority or capability to proper punish or control the children then the children can be raised, (* Note: I said Can be, not shall be *) in a manner that they do not understand the effects of tehir actions. They do not understnad their responibilites to society, and not jsut to them.

But in today's society, where no one can touch anyone else, and no one can say anything that might make their feelings hurt. The fact that psychologists have a term called "Starter Marriages" and other issues it seems that everyone is out for only themselves. So why would not the children also learn this? And only think about their immediate desires and wants. Of course lots of children do not do this, but enough do.

I think you have highlighted a major problem in society in general and justice systems specifically. That is contradiction. We don't want parents punishing their children, but we also want those children to be proper, behaved members of society.

Look at what we have here. We are told that long term incarceration alongside adult criminals is really bad for for teen psychology. OK, that seems pretty fair. But in other studies we have been told that light penalties for first time offenders generally do not deter them from re-offending, and harsh first time sentences are called for. We are all over the shop on these issues and not getting anything done.

 

[diamondbar1971]

I for one don't care about this ridiculous term politically correct crap.....and everyone walking around on egg shells afraid they might offend someone because of their opinion is just as bad.....don't do the crime and you won't have to do the time and that should be that..if we enforced the laws that we already have in effect, instead of letting someone off just because of age, then we would not have all the problems we have now; everyone would know exactly what would happen to them and besides that, people know when they are breaking the law, so if your kids break the law, well lets fry em up and then the next one thinking about doing something wrong, would think about the aftermath and probably would't do it...but then again i lived in southern cal for 25 years and watched the little ***** chase rtd busses and spray paint them on the run.....all kinds of ignorant acts like this day in and day out, when does it stop.....

 

[punisher73]

I can only go by my experience with juveniles being tried as an adult and how our county handles those cases.

1) It is a two phase process where the prosecutor has to show that a) juvenile system is not adequate with it's programs to rehabilitate the juvenile or help them. or b) that the crime is serious enough that juvenile sanctions are not enough.

2) Again, the only time they are tried is when the crime is VERY serious or they are a multiple offender and their crimes are getting more and more serious as they progress.

I don't think that they are "worse off" than before, I think that they were headed that way and the system stepped in before they started doing those crimes anyways. These aren't cases where a kid gets caught for shoplifting and they throw the book at him, these are crimes that if committed by an adult would earn them hard time regardless. It would have been interesting to see which countries voted "no" on that issue and have death squads that go around and execute their juvenile offenders like in some South American countries.

At least in our county, they try to work with juvenile offenders to keep them out of the adult system and many times give them a "straddle sentence" which is their probation and juvenile sentence is in effect unless they commit more crimes and then they have to serve an "adult portion" of their sentence which had been previously suspended if they complied with the court orders.

 

[Andrew Green]

It would have been interesting to see which countries voted "no" on that issue and have death squads that go around and execute their juvenile offenders like in some South American countries.

I'm sure it could be found, there are a few more then 186 members so I guess the remaining 7 didn't vote or weren't a part of it. I was however able to find this:

Only 25 countries carried out executions in 2006, 91 percent of them in just six countries: China, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan and the USA. Those that chose this most cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment are increasingly in the minority."

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=292102

Which could account for 5 of the non-votes at most. Capital Punishment is not that common, most countries have done away with it.

 

[MJS]

Came across this as well. Figured I'd just add it to this thread to carry on the discussion.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22160493/

Thoughts?

 

[MJS]

A few more.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22161179/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22160672/

 

[Andy Moynihan]

If they choose to commit adult crimes, they can have adult sentences. That's all I've got to say about that.

 

[MJS]

Wow, I have to say I'm surprised this thread is moving as slow as it is. I started it 8 days ago. I figured, considering we usually have 2 groups, one that thinks treatment over punishment is better, and the other that feels that they should be in prison, that this thread would have blown up.


Personally, looking at the track record of the people that are mentioned in the links, I really don't think that treatment would work for these people. Stealing a candy bar or some minor vandalism, sure I can see community service, probation, etc., but murder...throw them in jail. I really don't see how treatment can help someone who is willing to take a life without a second thought.

 

[MA-Caver]

Agreed there Arnie. But the question still raises it's ugly head. When, while in prison do they realize the fullness of their actions and what guarantee do we (the society that put them there) that they will have learned their lessons and will not act in such a manner again?
There are no guarantees of course. There's no guarantee that one of us here on MT might go nuts and end up in prison, same with our children (for those that have them). Sure the probablity factor goes up with varying circumstances but still even the low probablity ones can't offer us any guarantees that they and their offspring won't commit a crime worth a lifetime's debt to be paid.
I've known bad kids myself and have lost family members to the same. My feelings are still the same that they should be tried as adults and suffer adult punishments for "adult crimes".

It's been said here before, that the system is the problem. So what if they go to jail/prison. Sure they get ruffed up a bit, even gang raped or beaten or whatever else the horrors of prison life has to offer... yet they get into gangs, taught other crimes, get three squares a day, free laundry, and everything else that we normally have to pay for in one way or another, so once learned the prison life isn't that terrible, and that's why you got repeat offenders becuase prison has become somewhat of a haven or a place of respite til they're released again. The problem is that (as I see it) they don't get enough "instruction" that empathizes that they cannot expect to get away with what they've done and that they have to pay for their crimes. They got "rights" in prison thanks to the likes of Amnesty International and the ACLU which is supposed to protect from mistreatment and cruelty in prison.

So these kids do their crime and eventually learn the ins and outs of prison life and come out surviving and come out a hellva lot tougher and meaner than when they went in... (why aren't we using these to fight our wars?). Or worse... they come out... and just don't care... period.

Something is definitely lost in translation/transition here.

Well, it's probably a hellva lot cheaper to have guards to make sure they are staying behind bars and not escaping than it is to hire folks who might possibly -- possibly rehabilitate these kids and show them how to learn from their mistakes... the right way.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Where's Hammurabi when you need him.

 

[KenpoTex]

If they're old enough to make the decision to commit murder, rape, robbery, or any other violent crime; they're old enough to do hard time for it.