Primary form

[marlon]

What are the primary forms of the various kempo/kenpo/kaju arts? I have been told that EPAK for #4, Villari Shaolin kempo it has been said Shotung kwa? These may be correct or in error. I do not know if kajukenbo has one. But a discussion on why these forms would be so pivotal would be interesting

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Gentle Fist]

Nick Cerio's core form is Circle of the Tiger.

 

[dubljay]

You are correct the core of EPAK is Long Form Four. In this form, every principle of EPAK is present in some form of the self defense techniques that the form is built from. I have been by my instructor countless times, no matter how well I do on anything else for my black belt test, if I botch Long 4... It’s no dice. It is in Long Four that it becomes apparent if you know how to properly apply the power principles, ect just by watching how you perform it. Long 4 is the longest and most complex form in the system, it contains 40 self-defense techniques (20 techniques done 'right handed' and 'left handed') All other forms in EPAK are referred to as specialty and exercise/basics forms.

Just FYI the other forms are broken done as follows:


The One's and Two's are the exercise/basics forms, they contain only basic movements, no self defense techniques, the Three's are the specialty forms for grappling (each attack is defense against a grappling attack), Long 5 is specialty for takedowns, Long 6 is defense against weapons, 7 and 8 are use of weapons (7 is clubs 8 is knives).

I am by no means an expect on Long 4 (or any of the forms to be honest) and some of the EPAK seniors may point out errors, which I'm sure there is some, I hope to hear their opinions on the matter.

Hope this helps, and I look forward to the seniors opinions (hint hint please help out a struggling brown belt here who is prostrate before your knowledge and experience :uhyeah: {couldn’t lay it on more thick if I tried I don’t think})

 

[kempo108]

i know it is said that in shaolin kempo karate, sho dan kwa is the core form. but i think 6 kata is the core form. just like our discussion on which form would we pick if we can only have one.

Marlon, how is th knife form going?

 

[marlon]

I have it nailed to vthe point you showed me...cause i am practicing it like an idiot...i dreamed it lasyt night...


Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

Nick Cerio's core form is Circle of the Tiger.

Yes it is a good form...other than he created it why is this his core form? what does it teach that is essential to NCK?

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

You are correct the core of EPAK is Long Form Four. In this form, every principle of EPAK is present in some form of the self defense techniques that the form is built from.




Thank you for the excellent response. Fortunately Ed Parker left a well thought out and extensive detailing of the essentials of his system as far as he had taken it. Other styles are not so lucky. Hence this thread. What are some of the principles in this form. This is the reason it is extremely important in my opinion to see the forms done with the original intent. Not to limit ourselves, rather to help us gather in what the creater of the form intended or tyhenfounder of the system..


The One's and Two's are the exercise/basics forms, they contain only basic movements, no self defense techniques, the Three's are the specialty forms for grappling (each attack is defense against a grappling attack), Long 5 is specialty for takedowns, Long 6 is defense against weapons, 7 and 8 are use of weapons (7 is clubs 8 is knives).



It is great that you know this about your style...not to be contentious but do you keep your understanding within these boundries?


I am by no means an expect on Long 4 (or any of the forms to be honest) and some of the EPAK seniors may point out errors, which I'm sure there is some, I hope to hear their opinions on the matter.




Me too form all the styles...especially John Bishop, GM Kahoa (sp?) and other who may know more than i ...and that should include a lot of people here!!



Hope this helps, and I look forward to the seniors opinions (hint hint please help out a struggling brown belt here who is prostrate before your knowledge and experience :uhyeah: {couldn’t lay it on more thick if I tried I don’t think})

Yes again thank you for your answer

Rwpectfully,
marlon

 

[dubljay]

Thank you for the excellent response. Fortunately Ed Parker left a well thought out and extensive detailing of the essentials of his system as far as he had taken it. Other styles are not so lucky. Hence this thread.

(1)What are some of the principles in this form.

This is the reason it is extremely important in my opinion to see the forms done with the original intent. Not to limit ourselves, rather to help us gather in what the creater of the form intended or tyhenfounder of the system..

(2)It is great that you know this about your style...not to be contentious but do you keep your understanding within these boundries?


Me too form all the styles...especially John Bishop, GM Kahoa (sp?) and other who may know more than i ...and that should include a lot of people here!!

Yes again thank you for your answer

Rwpectfully,
marlon

My instructor quotes SGM Parker saying 'If you are to learn only one form let it be Long 4'


1) some of the basic principles of Long 4 are as follows (again I don't know all of them, and maybe incorrect on some)

The basic principles of this form are the same as those of the entire system, which is why its the core form.

When executing this form certain things should be clear. One being how you generate the power for your strikes and ect. There are only 3 main power principles (marriage of gravity (MOG), back up mass, and torque). By either not using one or more of the power principles, or incorrectly using them will lead to ineffective strikes (like using MOG while trying to strike upwards). Also incorrect or lack of use of these power principles will cause wasted motion (wasted motion is defined as: A move that lacks economy, that's delivered needlessly, or that does not produce the effect intended [definition taken from old IKKA Orange belt manual]. One main principle of EPAK is economy of motion (both linear and circular). Using the power principles correctly will help eliminate the need for loading motions for a strike. When concerned with multiple opponents wasted motion is a bad thing. By using economy of motion you not only allow for more, effective strikes, you conserve energy by eliminating non essential movements.

I don't know if this was 'built in' the form per se, however I have learned though much practice that it is impossible to execute this form with tense muscles. Given the length of this form, trying to perform it in its entirety while tensed up all the time (my instructor refers to as constipated motion) you will be worn out after the first handful of techniques. This form requires you to relax your muscles until the point of (perceived) impact in either a block or strike. This allows for better speed and economy of motion.

There are many little things in the form as well. For example, a block is defined as a lacking the intent to harm your opponent. Flashing Wings gives an example of this. The technique is a defense against a punch to the head. In the self defense version of the technique the punch is intercepted by an inward block at the elbow. The form version of the technique the inward block is really a strike to the elbow as your other hand is grabbing the wrist. In the self defense version your intent with the inward block is not to harm your opponent, only block the attack. That identical motion in the form version the intent is to break the elbow, making that motion a strike. Both motions are executed the same way, using the same power principles, but the intent is different.

There is much much more, and I will try to add more as I can.


2) Not entirely sure what you mean here. My experience and knowledge is largely EPAK. My goal is to become proficient in EPAK before exploring other styles in-depth.

I think this is a great topic by the way.


-Josh

 

[Seabrook]

You are correct the core of EPAK is Long Form Four. In this form, every principle of EPAK is present in some form of the self defense techniques that the form is built from. I have been by my instructor countless times, no matter how well I do on anything else for my black belt test, if I botch Long 4... It’s no dice. It is in Long Four that it becomes apparent if you know how to properly apply the power principles, ect just by watching how you perform it. Long 4 is the longest and most complex form in the system, it contains 40 self-defense techniques (20 techniques done 'right handed' and 'left handed') All other forms in EPAK are referred to as specialty and exercise/basics forms.

Just FYI the other forms are broken done as follows:


The One's and Two's are the exercise/basics forms, they contain only basic movements, no self defense techniques, the Three's are the specialty forms for grappling (each attack is defense against a grappling attack), Long 5 is specialty for takedowns, Long 6 is defense against weapons, 7 and 8 are use of weapons (7 is clubs 8 is knives).

I am by no means an expect on Long 4 (or any of the forms to be honest) and some of the EPAK seniors may point out errors, which I'm sure there is some, I hope to hear their opinions on the matter.

Hope this helps, and I look forward to the seniors opinions (hint hint please help out a struggling brown belt here who is prostrate before your knowledge and experience :uhyeah: {couldn’t lay it on more thick if I tried I don’t think})

Well written brother.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[dubljay]

Well written brother.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Thank you sir.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Yes it is a good form...other than he created it why is this his core form? what does it teach that is essential to NCK?

Respectfully,
marlon

Professor Cerio created his own animal katas based on Kajukenbo katas. In katas such as the Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, Circle of the Panther, he teaches us a street survival art. The more technical and mechanical movements of the "pinans" leave place to the more fluid and circular movements of Kenpo. Linear translations in the four cardinal points are replaced by translations in different angles. Kicks to the articulations start to appear as well as projections and restraints. Professor Cerio brings pressure points into play, but there is more than one movement that is not immediately visible, especially to a newcomer.

 

[kenpochad]

what rank did you learn long four for ?

 

[dubljay]

what rank did you learn long four for ?

Long 4 is considered 'the black belt' form. You must be proficient in the form in order to test for your first black. Long 4 is usually taught in the brown belt levels. Generally speaking the break down of forms to belts is something like this:

Yellow: Short 1
Orange: Long 1
Purple: Short 2
Blue: Long 2
Green Short 3 (first form you learn that is developed from self defense techniques)
3rd Brown: Long 3
2nd-1st Brown: Long 4

Speaking for myself, and the small school I came from I was often only in a class with my instructor and another black belt. By blue belt I knew some of the form. When testing for green I could execute the entire form, though very sloppy. I actually ended up teaching the second half of Long 4 to one of the brown belts above me.


-Josh