Possible retaliation for killed American contractors

[OULobo]

Wanted to open a venue of discussion on the topic of the renct kinllings of the four US security contractors in Iraq.

Is retaliation necessary?
If so, what should be done?
Does action or inaction reflect positively or negatively on the Pres.?
What action could he take to satify the wants of the people?
Is this an omen of the tragedy in Mogadishu?
Any other comments on the subject.

 

[michaeledward]

I think the Unites States should not be outsourcing our military. I certainly expect the Marine 1st Division to shut down Fallujah soon. But, this will just further increase the insecurity in Iraq and elsewhere. We will not be any safer (unless we are a contractor in Fallujah).

I think the US Military needs to take many of these outsourced jobs and bring them back into the troops. I don't understand why Blackwater was being paid to protect Bremer when we have more than 100,000 soldiers in Iraq.

I don't want to change this into a discussion about money, but these ex-Rangers and ex-Seals are earning between $350.00 - $1500.00 a day to be in these situations, while we are cutting benefits for the grunts in the regular army. I think this is outrageous.

We need fewer high-tech F22's, Ospreys and Missle Defense Shields and more boots in our armed services.

 

[Tgace]

No chain of command, ROE, equipment availability etc. issues...thats the attraction for these guys as personal/site security. The issue of if these guys should be treated the same as troops under Geneva?? Thats agreeably up for debate. They were in a dangerous place for profit, not service, there is a difference there.

 

[OULobo]

No chain of command, ROE, equipment availability etc. issues...thats the attraction for these guys as personal/site security. The issue of if these guys should be treated the same as troops under Geneva?? Thats agreeably up for debate. They were in a dangerous place for profit, not service, there is a difference there.

I was actually thinking this same idea. That the contractors may be more free in that, in a lawless area they aren't bound by the Geneva Convention. For example if they see an angry crowd approaching their client and they open up after warning, they wouldn't have to go under a court martial or a review, I guess there would be a local hearing if there is a local government to hear it. I wonder if that is actually the case.

 

[Tgace]

I was actually thinking this same idea. That the contractors may be more free in that, in a lawless area they aren't bound by the Geneva Convention. For example if they see an angry crowd approaching their client and they open up after warning, they wouldn't have to go under a court martial or a review, I guess there would be a local hearing if there is a local government to hear it. I wonder if that is actually the case.

Good question, I dont know...I wonder what the military has to say on these guys? I wonder who the contracting agency is too...last I heard the CIA was contracting out for direct action agents like these....

 

[Tgace]

Ive known of Blackwater for quite a while...been planning to take a few courese from them as they are a premier weapon/tactical school in the US...didnt know they were into the "hired gun" thing.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

Looks like they answered my question..they contract with the Dept of Defense (DOD), Dept. of State (DOS) and the Dept. of Transportation (DOT)...Im assuming that Bremers guys were DOS contracted. Now that I think of it, this isnt as unusual as I first thought. When I was doing Personal Security work for the military in Bosnia (MP dignitary protection), Ambasadors, Govt. officials and the like had their own bodyguards. I always assumed they were spec. ops/Delta etc. They were more likely contracted. Its not so easy to cut active troops loose to follow DOS personel around the globe.

 

[MA-Caver]

Personally I think if we retaliate it will make matters worse. We'd be no better than the Palestinians or the Isarelis who retaliate for every time some of their people get killed. However it's a double edged sword that if we don't do SOMETHING then it will only encourage more atrocities like the one we've seen.
Question is: What IS the RIGHT thing to do?

:asian:

 

[michaeledward]

Im assuming that Bremers guys were DOS contracted.

Bremer was appointed by the Department of Defense; Rumsfeld specifically.
The United States Department of State was shut out of Post Conflict Iraq. I find it highly unlikely that Blackwater is working for the State Department.

 

[michaeledward]

Personally I think if we retaliate it will make matters worse. We'd be no better than the Palestinians or the Isarelis who retaliate for every time some of their people get killed. However it's a double edged sword that if we don't do SOMETHING then it will only encourage more atrocities like the one we've seen.
Question is: What IS the RIGHT thing to do?

The 'RIGHT' thing to do would have been to invade with an overwhelming military force, secure the peace and then draw down the military presence rapidly. This proceedure has worked in a number of other conflicts in the past few decades.

Unfortuneately, the government was told that the US Military would be welcome as liberators, and thus planned for a small fighting force, which did not allow for a stable post conflict environment. Thus, our soldiers watched as the native people destroyed their own infrastructure (which is going to cost the US Taxpayers).

The next mistake was to disband the 400,000 Iraqi soldiers, deny them their military pensions and send them home. That is 400,000 disgruntled, unemployed Iraqi's with weapons ... Yeah ... we sent them home with their guns.

Oh, there were just so many mistakes. And there is no easy way out. It gets uglier from here. Just remember, the Generals wanted to invade with a force of 500,000 solders, Rumsfeld said, no, you get 130,000.

Mike

 

[RCastillo]

I'm for taking those turds, and kicking the hell out of them for doing that to those security people. If they want a fight, just obliterarte them. Enough of this BS. They want attention, so give it to them, and teach everyone else a lesson. :asian:

 

[Tgace]

Bremer was appointed by the Department of Defense; Rumsfeld specifically.
The United States Department of State was shut out of Post Conflict Iraq. I find it highly unlikely that Blackwater is working for the State Department.

Check their website link,,,they list the DOS as client. I personally was spoken to by a DOS security team member, while in Bosnia, asking if I was interested in doing similar work once I was out of the service.

Your right about Bremer though, Id forgotten about Rumsfeld appointing him.

 

[TonyM.]

Contractors are mercenaries and I hate mercenaries. Never the less we should retaliate seriously with special ops forces, not bombing.

 

[Tgace]

The 'RIGHT' thing to do would have been to invade with an overwhelming military force, secure the peace and then draw down the military presence rapidly. This proceedure has worked in a number of other conflicts in the past few decades.

Unfortuneately, the government was told that the US Military would be welcome as liberators, and thus planned for a small fighting force, which did not allow for a stable post conflict environment. Thus, our soldiers watched as the native people destroyed their own infrastructure (which is going to cost the US Taxpayers).

The next mistake was to disband the 400,000 Iraqi soldiers, deny them their military pensions and send them home. That is 400,000 disgruntled, unemployed Iraqi's with weapons ... Yeah ... we sent them home with their guns.

Oh, there were just so many mistakes. And there is no easy way out. It gets uglier from here. Just remember, the Generals wanted to invade with a force of 500,000 solders, Rumsfeld said, no, you get 130,000.

Mike

Amen...I think we found something we totally agree on.

 

[michaeledward]

Check their website link,,,they list the DOS as client. I personally was spoken to by a DOS security team member, while in Bosnia, asking if I was interested in doing similar work once I was out of the service.

From the Blackwater website ... I added the font formatting.

Employment page is back
Yes, we have reinstated the employment page. The growth in contract opportunities has been explosive and we are recruiting. All Special Operations personnel are welcome and encouraged to apply. The Post “IRAQI FREEDOM” security needs are extensive for DOD and contractors in-country. BSC is competing for static site security and protection details on the ground. We are also recruiting for existing contract work in other overseas locations.
​

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/news.html

From the Department of Defense

During an April 1 Coalition Provisional Authority press conference in Baghdad, CPA chief spokesman Dan Senor told reporters that Blackwater had a government contract to provide security for CPA administrator Ambassador L. Paul Bremer III.During an April 1 Coalition Provisional Authority press conference in Baghdad, CPA chief spokesman Dan Senor told reporters that Blackwater had a government contract to provide security for CPA administrator Ambassador L. Paul Bremer III.
​

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2004/n04022004_200404024.html

 

[Tgace]

From the Blackwater website ... I added the font formatting.

Employment page is back


Yes, we have reinstated the employment page. The growth in contract opportunities has been explosive and we are recruiting. All Special Operations personnel are welcome and encouraged to apply. The Post “IRAQI FREEDOM” security needs are extensive for DOD and contractors in-country. BSC is competing for static site security and protection details on the ground. We are also recruiting for existing contract work in other overseas locations.


​

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/news.html







From the Department of Defense

During an April 1 Coalition Provisional Authority press conference in Baghdad, CPA chief spokesman Dan Senor told reporters that Blackwater had a government contract to provide security for CPA administrator Ambassador L. Paul Bremer III.During an April 1 Coalition Provisional Authority press conference in Baghdad, CPA chief spokesman Dan Senor told reporters that Blackwater had a government contract to provide security for CPA administrator Ambassador L. Paul Bremer III.




​

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2004/n04022004_200404024.html

Ummm...OK, I said you were right about Bremer being with the DOD. You kind of implied the the DOS wouldnt use guys like this....the blackwaterusa.com website says

"Blackwater USA is comprised of five companies; Blackwater Training Center, Blackwater Target Systems, Blackwater Security Consulting, Blackwater Canine, and Blackwater Air (AWS). We have established a global presence and provide training and tactical solutions for the 21st century."



Our clients include federal law enforcement agencies, the Department of Defense, Department of State, and Department of Transportation, local and state entities from around the country, multi-national corporations, and friendly nations from all over the globe.



We customize and execute solutions for our clients to help keep them at the level of readiness required to meet today's law enforcement, homeland security, and defense challenges.



Any and all defense services supplied to foreign nationals will only be pursuant to proper authorization by the Department of State.

Come to Blackwater, where the professionals train."

Gary Jackson
President

Thats all I was saying.

 

[michaeledward]

Oh, I see.

It will be interesting to watch this whole Blackwater contract thing in this coming week. It seems that Blackwater has just hired a bunch of contractors from Chile and South Africa. Both of these countries have laws against their citizens fighting as mercenaries.

I suppose that if your goal is to hire bad-*** killers ... those that worked in Augusto Pinochet's goon squads is a good place to go.

 

[Tgace]

Im just guessing here, but there may be a way around the merc. thing. If these guys are acting as bodyguards/security and not participating in offensive operations, they are probably not really mercs. in the strictest sense.

 

[Tgace]

An interesting study on the privitization of security by the govt. can be read at....

http://www.ciaonet.org/isa/mar01/

An interseting quote from it...

Private military companies, as they have come to be known in recent years, seem tailor-made for exactly this kind of need. They often possess great flexibility with an ability to create unique solutions for each case, knowledge about the problem area and operational expertise, business integrity, secure confidentiality, and a completely apolitical nature. 33 When a government chooses to outsource to these companies, then the state bears no accountability for undesired consequences (back to the plausible deniability argument mentioned earlier), deaths of citizens, or moral and legal dilemmas about the legitimacy of an intervention. 34 With virtually all internationally-oriented private military companies emanating from advanced industrial societies, smaller state recipients of their services may believe that such arrangements can reinforce constructive interdependence with the West. 35 Given some of the unusual international circumstances where security services are necessary these days, such as dealing with the protection of international relief workers responding to complex humanitarian emergencies, 36 outsourcing security services to private military companies looks increasingly attractive. These private military companies also serve broader corporation as well as government interests: they offer a means (along with ongoing moves toward diversification and globalization) 37 for militarily-oriented multinationals to maintain profitability during a time of shrinking defense contracts; and they provide an easily-accessible means for other companies not at all involved in security issues to manage their own political risks abroad. 38

 

[loki09789]

The 'RIGHT' thing to do would have been to invade with an overwhelming military force, secure the peace and then draw down the military presence rapidly. This proceedure has worked in a number of other conflicts in the past few decades.

Unfortuneately, the government was told that the US Military would be welcome as liberators, and thus planned for a small fighting force, which did not allow for a stable post conflict environment. Thus, our soldiers watched as the native people destroyed their own infrastructure (which is going to cost the US Taxpayers).

The next mistake was to disband the 400,000 Iraqi soldiers, deny them their military pensions and send them home. That is 400,000 disgruntled, unemployed Iraqi's with weapons ... Yeah ... we sent them home with their guns.

Oh, there were just so many mistakes. And there is no easy way out. It gets uglier from here. Just remember, the Generals wanted to invade with a force of 500,000 solders, Rumsfeld said, no, you get 130,000.

Mike

Discovery times had an analyst speak to this affect as well. Basically if you are going to use the 'mechanisms' of empirialism with clearly communicated goals, established indicators of constitutes stabilization, and timelines that are reasonable and flexible that is fine - but don't screw up by leaving early, staying too long or half stepping the process.... I have to agree.

As far as these Security Contractors, the response should be no different than if it were any other private businessman from America conducting business in a clearly hostile environment. I really hope that the POTUS/Administration/Media don't start blurring these private citizens with troops. They are not. It is almost an insult to those Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen over there who have died with no 'response' outcry to this extent. Blackwater, for good or ill, could be operating in the same way as Air America or any other CIA backed contract work. It gets around some Geneva Code loop holes for Espionage/Operational limits as well.
Though, when I was seriously considering this work after the Bosnia deployment, the company - don't remember the name because I decided not to follow through - had website info that implied that employees would be subject to the same general ROE, UCMJ.... restrictions. It is a very sticky grey area.

The big horror is the mutilation and parading of corpses. Ferret them out and charge them accordingly under what ever Jurisdictional law is in place and leave it at that. Any other response would seem over the top and an attempt to gain approval points.

I find it interesting that different press organizations have been critical of other press groups who made the choice to use certain images in reporting the story, or in how they have modified the images to reduce the graphicness of the images. We were bombarded with images of people throwing themselves from the WTC's and this is too much?

 

[Makalakumu]

An interesting study on the privitization of security by the govt. can be read at....

http://www.ciaonet.org/isa/mar01/

An interseting quote from it...

Private military companies, as they have come to be known in recent years, seem tailor-made for exactly this kind of need. They often possess great flexibility with an ability to create unique solutions for each case, knowledge about the problem area and operational expertise, business integrity, secure confidentiality, and a completely apolitical nature. 33 When a government chooses to outsource to these companies, then the state bears no accountability for undesired consequences (back to the plausible deniability argument mentioned earlier), deaths of citizens, or moral and legal dilemmas about the legitimacy of an intervention. 34 With virtually all internationally-oriented private military companies emanating from advanced industrial societies, smaller state recipients of their services may believe that such arrangements can reinforce constructive interdependence with the West. 35 Given some of the unusual international circumstances where security services are necessary these days, such as dealing with the protection of international relief workers responding to complex humanitarian emergencies, 36 outsourcing security services to private military companies looks increasingly attractive. These private military companies also serve broader corporation as well as government interests: they offer a means (along with ongoing moves toward diversification and globalization) 37 for militarily-oriented multinationals to maintain profitability during a time of shrinking defense contracts; and they provide an easily-accessible means for other companies not at all involved in security issues to manage their own political risks abroad. 38

I read the whole document. That was something that I heard about in South America, but had no idea how widespread it had become. Some questions... How long will it take for two multinational corporations to actually wage war on each other through these private military firms? Can anyone see how these firms could undermine the soverienty of a nation? Does anyone see something new on the evolutionary horizon? How about a corporation/state?

upnorthkyosa