Please help me understand

[Joe1957]

Hi, New posting member but, read allot of your information presented in here but, still have a question. This really is not a, what sword to purchase question, well kinda anyway.
Please excuse any improper descriptive wording as I am new to this interest.

What I'm looking for here....

I am amazed by and interested in Samurai, Japan, and especially the history about both. I am NOT interested in cutting but, am interested in the Iaido Kata. I am trying to gain as much info and want to start practicing this form, mostly for the history but, also to gain something too. (not really sure what yet, maybe peace, relaxation????? it hasn't come to me yet, hopefully it will as I understand more).

ANYWHO. To start, when reading these forums I see "always ask the advice of your dojo or sensei." In my area, upstate NY, after looking through the whole WWW, can't locate any one in my area who teaches this art. So, trust me I would go to him or her for advice, training and so on.
I have a bokken but, it just does not give me what I want, the proper drawing and re-sheathing, so on.. I do have to self teach myself and so my question is not about a particular sword but, why can't an inexpensive iaito be used in this gentle art?
I always see responses here that say "that sword would not be allowed in my dojo" and for certain arts, Iaido, do NOT understand this.
Unless I am well off based here the Kata's are not really,,,,,,,, can't find the words so, ,,,dangerous to yourself or others around. Seems in this instance and 200 dollar practical sword (UNSHARPTENED) would work out.
I do understand if I wanted to go further with something else, maybe cutting or 2 person kata, safety is a concern and more proper equipment would be needed.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, and I hope you all understand where I heading on this.
Thanks, Joe

 

[Tanaka]

Allow me to be the first one to tell you the responses you are going to get here by Martial artist.

1)If you practice by yourself; You're not learning Iaido.
2)You're not training in martial art, you're playing with a sword.
3)And since you're not trained by certified person, you also do not know how to practice safely. Un sharpened or Sharpened.

So basically, you can practice with your Bokken in an attempt to learn Iaido Kata. But Kata is more than just going through the motions. To understand what is actually being done(since you said you're interested in the history), you have to have certified teacher to teach you the philosophical aspects of what is going on in the Kata. Or else you will never actually be doing it correctly and will hopelessly never master it. The chances are pretty much zero. As there is just soooo much going on in a Kata that many do not understand.

Now with all that said. Just like if your computer doesn't have a motherboard... You can't use it.
If your area doesn't have any Iaido schools; I'm sorry to say but you can't learn it. Now the bright side is to try looking for Kenjutsu school. Try looking for traditional japanese martial arts school. Some of them may teach Jujutsu along with weapons(Such as the Katana).
Some may teach a higher focus on a weapon, but still also teach Katana. I'm happy you take interest in Japanese history/culture. But you have to go with what you got, and if you really want to be apart of it. Then you need to find a school that comes from it.

If you ask these guys. They may be able to find a traditional Japanese martial art in your area.

 

[Bruno@MT]

If you don't think kata is dangerous, then you're not doing it right.
kata is also done with a partner. Kata that is performed correctly is done with the intent to kill. Think of it like this: the second you bow in, you are trying to kill the other person. I know this sounds vague, but if you ever get to the point where you have done much kata under a skilled teacher, you will understand. Mind you I am not a trained sword expert, but the same applies to unarmed kata.

Now, for partner kata, you make weapon contact. This is why bokken are used. Iaito would get damaged too easily. But sometimes iaito is used. And you DEFINITELY don't want either of you to have crappy material. Because it can bend or break, or just come apart. You would not be the first to really kill your partner because the mekugi pin holding the blade in the tsuka snaps.

Even in single person kata this can happen if your blade flies towards the person who just happens to stand in front of you. There are documented cases of people having been killed by a sword that came apart when they were just standing at the wrong place at the wrong time. So you see, the quality of any weapon is very important if you want to practice safely.

 

[Aikironin]

Another Side note, Samurai didn't really practice Iaido per se, some schools had it within their curriculum as Batto jutsu, Iaido as currently done is a gendai Budo or modern Martial art, that philosophically has little in common with its Koryu antecedents.

It's great that you are interested in these arts, but it is still better to spend 10 years finding a good teacher, than 10 minutes with a lousy one. There are arts I have literally waited decades to train in, but life's timing can be a ***** at times, so for some I remain on the sidelines, and on others, I only got exposed to the Kihon or basic movements, which I practice until I can travel to see my instructor and get exposed to more.

As tanaka said check other schools as well, Kendo schools usually have some form of Iaido within there syllabus (usually Seitei) Some Aikido schools along with Aikiken (not to be confused with any form of Kenjutsu) may have some Iai offered, or you may get lucky and find one that has a legit Koryu.

I don't know how far you are from Cornell, but there is an Aikido Shihan that also teaches Shindo Muso Ryu Jo, and Katori Shinto Ryu Sword. Trust me well worth your time to seek him out!

Remember it is the journey not the destination.

 

[Joe1957]

If this is true, what your saying, and trust me, I believe it is and trust your answer, how did a swordsman teach himself before there were others to teach him.

I see what your saying there's more to a kata than moves, there's an understanding you can't get from a DVD or book. You have to have it inside you before you understand and this part does concern me.
I now look back on the guides I find here on the Internet and see there is really no explanation other than the moves. I guess that's missing a big part.

Thanks for your response. It won't slow me down but, gives insight and I appreciate that. Joe

 

[Ken Morgan]

Upstate NY? Where?

There are some iaido clubs in upstate New York. Try here http://www.auskf.info/

Also depending on where you are, and how serious you are, we get Americans up here all the time practicing with us or one of the other clubs in Southern Ontario. Guelph is 1 hour 20 minutes from the border, Toronto about the same.

Canadian clubs, go here http://kendo-canada.com/

Find a qualified teacher and club. Worst case scenario attend once a month and practice what you’re learned at home the rest of the time.

Come up here in May for our big seminar in May, probably the biggest iaido seminar in North America. http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai.seminar.html

Good luck.

 

[Joe1957]

Posted the above before I read the other responses and thank you all. I guess theres more that just the learning part there is also the seeking part, Thanks.

PS, Albany NY. will continue looking for instruction.

 

[Aikironin]

how did a swordsman teach himself before there were others to teach him.

Trial and error over hundreds if not thousands of years, except in this case error most likely resulted in death. And in those days it was either a quick death at the hands of someone else, or a slow painful one, that resulted from a cut that spread through infection, got septic and that is all she wrote! This isn't to be dramatic, but swinging a 2 foot long razor blade doesn't leave much margin for error. Even today practitioners using Shinken (Live Blade) instead of an unsharpened Iaito still cut themselves.

BTW you are 2 1/2 hours from Cornell drive time. Which isn't that unreasonable for 1-2 times a month to train in the aforementioned Koryu, as I believe those classes are on weekends.

 

[Tanaka]

If this is true, what your saying, and trust me, I believe it is and trust your answer, how did a swordsman teach himself before there were others to teach him.

By going through battles and war.
By going through duels.
And thus becoming a hardened warrior.

I definitely don't suggest you do this. Especially since there are already schools with links to these warriors that have already done it for you with generations of warriors developing these tactics along the way.

 

[Tanaka]

Another Side note, Samurai didn't really practice Iaido per se, some schools had it within their curriculum as Batto jutsu, Iaido as currently done is a gendai Budo or modern Martial art, that philosophically has little in common with its Koryu antecedents.

That is also something I would have liked to say, but I've had some Iaidoka argue with me about it.

 

[Ken Morgan]

That is also something I would have liked to say, but I've had some Iaidoka argue with me about it.

Iaido was never a battlefield art. Most koryu came about after 1600 and developed as a means of maintaining training/skills. The Samurai were the bureaucrats of the Shogun periods.

I've said it on another thread, if you believe you're not getting much out of your training, koryu or otherwise, then you are either not training hard enough or training incorrectly.

 

[Joe1957]

By going through battles and war.
By going through duels.
And thus becoming a hardened warrior.

I definitely don't suggest you do this. Especially since there are already schools with links to these warriors that have already done it for you with generations of warriors developing these tactics along the way.

LOL, No, I'll pass on those..

 

[Tanaka]

LOL, No, I'll pass on those..

Aw, why not?
Nothing gets the blood flow going like a duel to the death
Haha jk :lol:

But on a serious note. It might be hard to give up your original agenda, but you may find out something once you go into a real traditional school. You will see it is so much better than trying to self teach yourself, and other martial artist will take your training seriously. I speak from experience.

 

[Joe1957]

LOL,

Well you all pointed me in more directions than I have found on my own....Thanks and I will proceed forward.
Very bunch of knowledgeable folks here.

 

[Joe1957]

I need to say on more thing, OMG. Why, just sorting through the different arts, the different styles, the sub stiles of the styles,,, ect... LOL.
This journey will take time.
And the pronunciation of the styles.....Looking at the historical side of things, I was pretty proud of myself in learning some of the pronunciations but, a long way to go.
From what I am seeing right now Kendo seems the way to follow, and also from the, what I will call, sub styles or branches (PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG) of Aikido may be another outlet.
I just wish they were with in an hour or so of me but, I guess if I am unwilling to travel I must not want it bad enough,,,,,,, but I do.
Joe

 

[Tanaka]

I need to say on more thing, OMG. Why, just sorting through the different arts, the different styles, the sub stiles of the styles,,, ect... LOL.
This journey will take time.
And the pronunciation of the styles.....Looking at the historical side of things, I was pretty proud of myself in learning some of the pronunciations but, a long way to go.
From what I am seeing right now Kendo seems the way to follow, and also from the, what I will call, sub styles or branches (PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG) of Aikido may be another outlet.
I just wish they were with in an hour or so of me but, I guess if I am unwilling to travel I must not want it bad enough,,,,,,, but I do.
Joe

The good thing is normally they will let you sit in or try a few classes before actually joining. So you can see if it's something you like, without having to spend money. Just contact and ask.

 

[Langenschwert]

If this is true, what your saying, and trust me, I believe it is and trust your answer, how did a swordsman teach himself before there were others to teach him.

I see what your saying there's more to a kata than moves, there's an understanding you can't get from a DVD or book. You have to have it inside you before you understand and this part does concern me.
I now look back on the guides I find here on the Internet and see there is really no explanation other than the moves. I guess that's missing a big part.

Thanks for your response. It won't slow me down but, gives insight and I appreciate that. Joe

Swordsmanship is a pretty finite thing. There are only so many ways to use a sword effectively. A study of various sword practices from all over the world shows applications of universal principles. Combat is combat. Certainly cultural attitudes, available technology and local terrain all factor in, but the core is the same the world over for the most part. The result is simply survival of the fittest. Someone (Buddy Boy) survives a fight and thinks "man, I gotta remember to do that again". So he does. If it wasn't a fluke, he survives and shows his cousin Billy Bob. They go out to raid the next village down the road, and both Buddy Boy and Billy Bob come back intact with loot. Thus are the martial arts born. More or less.

So first the bad news: You can't teach yourself swordsmanship. Sorry 'bout that.

Next the good news. Learn ANY good swordsmanship you have available in your area. It doesn't HAVE to be Iaido. It doesn't even have to be Japanese (though that would of course be ideal given your goal). The main deal is learning how to move your body. Whatever tool you have in your hand really is secondary. I think if you spent time (say two or three years) learning Classical Italian Duelling Sabre (just picking a random swordsmanship example that's pretty far removed from Iaido), you will learn a lot about body control. That stuff ain't easy. That ability will translate to Iaido even if the mechanics are very different (and they are). It doesn't even have to be swordsmanship. Take up wrestling. Seriously. It's the ability to control your somebody else's body with your body... very important for a swordsman. In fact it's the single most important skill to have asides from blade work.

Now some bad news: Conflict. When learning a style of swordsmanship, you have to forget what you already knew from your old style and become a "blank slate" for the new one. That can be difficult. For example, the German and Japanese swordsmanship styles I study are very similar, there are key differences that I MUST keep in mind if I want to do either one properly. I just can't throw them together in a mish-mash.

So there's the dilemma: pick an art that's very similar and you pick up the new basics rather quickly. However, you may have trouble keeping them separate. Pick one that's far removed, and you'll have little trouble keeping them separate. However, the new art will seem far more alien and the basics will come more slowly. With diligent work, either way is fine. It depends on your learing style.

Good luck in your search.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Joe1957]

Thanks Mark, It does make sense....

I am on to something in my area, Meitokukan (Albany), its a branch out of NY City which, not sure if still in existence (was dated 2006 in my search) but, going to try to contact. It is basically a club that teaches, from the little I have found and covers Kendo & Iaido, so I am excited on this find. Found it from a link posted here, then a link, then a link, I think you get the idea. No website, just a phone # so I'm off to try.

 

[Joe1957]

excitement gone,, phone # not in service, oh well, on to a new path

 

[Tanaka]

excitement gone,, phone # not in service, oh well, on to a new path

Did you try phone book?
They may have changed numbers... and don't update the website.