Pit-Bull dilemma??

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
lonecoyote said:
I own a rednose pit bull. My neighbor kept it on a foot and a half chain, no shelter, beat her and was probably going to fight her. When he went back to Mexico he just left her and I went and got her, early enough in her life so that now she is a good dog, does my miles with me every morning. It is not the dog, it is the owner. Unfortunately this breed does attract a certain kind of scumbag that will take what is wonderful about dogs, their desire to please, and twist it into something painful and horrible . On the average they are a little gamer than most dogs, they do love to play, exercise and gentleness is the key. I'd deal with a problem pit bull like i'd deal w/any problem dog. Don't run, stand your ground, make use of your opposable thumb (fill your hand).

Good story.

Pit Bulls are resilient breeds. There are many stories of them overcoming great amounts of abuse to be wonderful pets. The worst thing you can do to a pit bull is neglect, actually. Pit Bulls seem to have a much harder time springing back from neglect then from abuse.

That said, this was an interesting discussion where information about the breed came up: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24874&highlight=Pit+Bull

I advice all of you, if you haven't already, to view my last post where I provided a link to a very compelling video...

Paul
 

rompida

Orange Belt
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Location
Monroe, NC
Sorry Paul, but I have to disagree with you...

1) Yes pit bulls can make great pets, but neglect and abuse alone don't make a mean pit bull. These great pets have "snapped" and attacked their owners, with no reason. They are unpredictable.

2) Yes, dogs can sense fear, but as in my case, the dog never even stopped to check me out. Just came bounding toward me and lept for my throat. I didn't have time to show fear.

I kind of view Pit Bulls the way I do AK-47s. The gun was made for killing-plain and simple. Sure, I could use it to go deer hunting, but that's not what it was made for, and not what most use it for. Pits were NOT bred to be pets. They were bred for pulling and fighting. People are attracted to their power and the rep they have earned for being dangerous. Sure, they can make great pets, but you can't undo generations of selective breeding for aggressive traits. That's why some state have outlawed the breed.

I'm an animal lover to the core - but I put self preservation above it.
 

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
16,361
Reaction score
796
Location
Michigan
Jade Tigress said:
Awesome story Rich and it took a lot of presence of mind on your part to handle the situation as you did...all of them actually...but I really think this is the coolest one...growling and stuff at the dog...you got your point across to the animal that you were meaner than he was and it would be a mistake to attack you. I have heard that you should NEVER run from a dog but I didn't know about the eye contact. I thought that was bad too but obviously not...I guess you would WANT to appear aggressive and inimidating to the dog instead of trying to present yourself as a non-threat in that type of situation. Kudos. :asian:

I am no expert.

Take this with a grain of salt how I made it through.

Nothing more. :)
 

lonecoyote

Brown Belt
Joined
May 13, 2004
Messages
413
Reaction score
10
Thanks Paul. Yes, dogs can "snap". Not just pit bulls snap. All kinds of dogs. But when a pit bull snaps, they always, always say pit bull. When a chow snaps, a german shepard snaps, a dalmation snaps (and they are a challenging dog, most folks who see that disney movie don't know that, they buy one for the kid, and don't realize what they're in for) the news just says a dog snapped. All dogs can do it, not just pit bulls. A lot of breeds are unpredictable. Yes they were bred mainly for the pit. They were not bred for pets, but you know most dogs weren't bred for pets, they were bred for a purpose, guarding stock animals, hunting large and dangerous game, etc. Every dog from the poodle to the dachsund (badgers) was bred for a hard core purpose that doesn't necessarily make for a good pet. Some people are attracted to their power and rep, thats true, maybe those are also the kind of people that abuse them.
 

Lisa

Don't get Chewed!
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
13,582
Reaction score
94
Location
a happy place
lonecoyote said:
Thanks Paul. Yes, dogs can "snap". Not just pit bulls snap. All kinds of dogs. But when a pit bull snaps, they always, always say pit bull. When a chow snaps, a german shepard snaps, a dalmation snaps (and they are a challenging dog, most folks who see that disney movie don't know that, they buy one for the kid, and don't realize what they're in for) the news just says a dog snapped. All dogs can do it, not just pit bulls. A lot of breeds are unpredictable. Yes they were bred mainly for the pit. They were not bred for pets, but you know most dogs weren't bred for pets, they were bred for a purpose, guarding stock animals, hunting large and dangerous game, etc. Every dog from the poodle to the dachsund (badgers) was bred for a hard core purpose that doesn't necessarily make for a good pet. Some people are attracted to their power and rep, thats true, maybe those are also the kind of people that abuse them.

Can you elaborate on the Dalmation comment? I have had a Dalmation for 13 years. She is sweet and kind and loving. Never had a problem with her and never recalled anyone ever having one either. You have peaked my curiosity. :)

Thanks.
 

lonecoyote

Brown Belt
Joined
May 13, 2004
Messages
413
Reaction score
10
Hi, Lisa, I'm sure you've never had any problems and you're a great dog owner. As far as dalmatians being challenging, I've read a few things over the internet www.dalmatians.us/dal4u.html is one and I've heard a few things by word of mouth. I am not saying they are not a good breed of dog, just saying that responsible dog ownership is the key to preventing attacks, not witch hunting a certain breed of dog.
 

TigerWoman

Senior Master
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
4,262
Reaction score
39
I had a run in with a pit bull lately. I had taken my two poodles for a walk to the park. Ones a female, and the other a neutered male pup. The new park caretaker has a house on the corner of the park as I entered. While he was helping his wife, baby and stroller out of the car, here comes the dog across the parking lot in a flash. I got myself between the dog and my frantic poodles. I was glad that Ninja did not choose that moment to be aggressive. The dog was a male and mine were being submissive though terrified and behind me but I didn't read any signals other than wanting to sniff them. The owner finally ran over and put a hand around the collar and it was over. We do have leash laws so I reminded him it could have been alot worse all around. Shook me up though.

I had been reading a book on aggression, "Aggression in Dogs" Practical Management, Prevention and Behavior Modification. Brenda Aloff, author.
I got it through Dogwise.com

They have some tips on fending off aggressive dogs but I don't know if citronella spray, or even pepper spray in that situation would have helped. It would have been difficult to get to the spray let alone handle my dogs and get it directed at the pit bull. Then I could spray myself too, there is always that possibility. Nor would dropped treat pieces have helped if the dog was on a mission, even if they were large pieces of steak. They also say to use an umbrella but get your dogs used to it being opened and closed. It's to provide a distraction as the dog mangles that, you get away supposedly.

In the case of the pit bull actually going aggressively after your leg or neck, there might not be much time. I remember scrambling up on a car once to get away from a doberman mix. There isn't much time. Neither was there much time (same park same day) when just a few minutes later while sitting on the bench, when another loose dog-a boxer caused another melee. I'm carrying my pepper spray now and not walking by the park caretaker's house anymore. And I think walking one dog is enough, so I would be able to hoist the dog in the air. Although in the book, that can be a signal for aggressive behavior too but have done that several times in the past. Two frantic dogs is too much. TW
 

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
rompida said:
Sorry Paul, but I have to disagree with you...

I kind of view Pit Bulls the way I do AK-47s. The gun was made for killing-plain and simple.

Your post is filled with superstition rather then substancial fact.

- According to the American Temperment Society breed statistics, "Pit Bulls" outperformed the Golden Retriever in Temperment tests consistantly over the last 5 years. They consistantly perform better then most dogs (over 95%); this means that Pits consistantly show no aggression when put in strange circumstances with strange people.

- According to a study done on Fatal Dog attacks by animal behaviorist Karen Delise; the critical factors that contributed to fatel dog attacks were owner responsability, function of the dog, and reproductive status. In almost 500 cases, she was unable to find one where any dog "turned" on their master. Also, she was unable to find ANY case of a fatal attack by a single, neutered, household Pit Bull.

- You will, in fact, find no scientific study that points to the idea of any dog breed being prone to "turning" on its master.

- Research on Dog fighting and Bull baiting will show you evidence that in fighting dogs, the tendancy to bite a human was bred out of the dog, not into it. Pits are genetically predisposed to showing animal aggression, not human aggression. This was because in dog fights, the handlers and the refs had to be in the ring with the dog; therefore a dog prone to bite a human was generally put down.

There are a lot of websites and books that have more information on the breed; I suggest that you objectively do some searches on this info. You can still feel free to disagree with me, however the evidence is overwhelming stacked against your opinion...

Paul
 

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
Lisa said:
Can you elaborate on the Dalmation comment? I have had a Dalmation for 13 years. She is sweet and kind and loving. Never had a problem with her and never recalled anyone ever having one either. You have peaked my curiosity. :)

Thanks.

Dalmations are genetically predisposed to showing fearful aggression in unfamiliar circumstances. They consistantly score very low on temperment tests.

In there defense, I would score low on temperment tests too if skinny old ladies where constantly after my coat...:uhyeah:

However, your dog goes to show that proper socialization, care, and love can make almost any dog a great pet, regardless of temperment stats.

:)
 

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
TigerWoman said:
They have some tips on fending off aggressive dogs but I don't know if citronella spray, or even pepper spray in that situation would have helped. It would have been difficult to get to the spray let alone handle my dogs and get it directed at the pit bull. Then I could spray myself too, there is always that possibility.

I concur.

Pepper spray is a great solution, but accessing it before an incident occurs while controlling your dogs is a real problem for all of us.

Paul
 

Henderson

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Messages
1,112
Reaction score
8
Location
Ashland, PA, USA
I really can't believe all the fear people have relating to a certain breed. See links below...

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanstaffordshire.htm

http://www.terrificpets.com/dog_breeds/American_Staffordshire_Terriers.asp

http://www.dog-breeds.net/American_Staff_Terrier.htm

http://www.dogbiz.com/dogs-grp4/amstaff/amstaff.htm

These are just a few UNBIASED links to reviews of breed temperament that praise the American Staffordshire Terrier as what they really are; loyal, protective, sturdy dogs.

Just as an aside.....I've been bitten by dogs 5 times. In EVERY instance the offending pooch was a tiny rat of a dog weighing no more than 15 lbs.

Any dog can be made mean, nasty, and vicious if treated poorly and neglected. My next-door neighbor has the most unsocial Labrador Retriever I've ever seen.
 

Jade Tigress

RAWR
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Mar 11, 2004
Messages
14,196
Reaction score
152
Location
Chicago
Henderson said:
Just as an aside.....I've been bitten by dogs 5 times. In EVERY instance the offending pooch was a tiny rat of a dog weighing no more than 15 lbs.

Any dog can be made mean, nasty, and vicious if treated poorly and neglected. My next-door neighbor has the most unsocial Labrador Retriever I've ever seen.

Good points. And I have also observed that small dogs can be some of the meanest little things...especially chihuahas...my friend had one that bit all the time..and my step-dad said he had a cocker spaniel as a kid that was the meanest dog he ever saw.
 

Paul B

3rd Black Belt
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
942
Reaction score
13
Location
Northwest Indiana
As others have rightly pointed out..ANY dog has the potential for aggression. Educate yourself about canine behavioral traits and be a good owner..if everyone did these two things we wouldn't have threads like this.

As others have said..do not run away..this will only kick in the dogs prey drive and make them more excitable. Turn to the the side and "sidle" away..this is taking a page directly from the doggy social code..it says "I don't know who you think you're barking at,but I am not here to cause problems."

I would,however carry pepper spray or a nice cane or stick.an umbrella to open and make yourself appear larger,plus add distracting noise..would be even better. I know that around NW Indiana and Chicago there are many,many irresponsible owners who breed and use their dogs for the worst and most cruel reasons. I am a big supporter of MARS (Midwest Akita Rescue) and the Lake County Humane Society. All the stories I have heard 99.9% of the time is attributable to the lack of education and responsibility on the owners/breeders part. Educate yourself.
 

TigerWoman

Senior Master
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
4,262
Reaction score
39
Henderson said:
.

Just as an aside.....I've been bitten by dogs 5 times. In EVERY instance the offending pooch was a tiny rat of a dog weighing no more than 15 lbs.

Any dog can be made mean, nasty, and vicious if treated poorly and neglected. My next-door neighbor has the most unsocial Labrador Retriever I've ever seen.

My now, 7 lb. poodle pup has an aggressive streak which I have to nip in the bud. He has gotten ahold of the Culligan's guy jean. He has gone after the mailman, the plumber, the electrician and all of my son's friends. No bites yet. He would lunge toward all the dogs on our walks but I have been putting him into sits and gotten inbetween. My 5th poodle and he's not like any of my others, nor like his mama. So, maybe he has some breeding genetics for aggression. I certainly have been working on it from day one. But now with some education, I have a better idea of what to do. We have alot of work to do. I don't think it takes just a mean owner to have an aggressive dog as this is one of the most pampered dogs on this planet. I also had a German Shepherd who was a pussycat. He was professionally tested and failed miserably. Wanted to climb the wall to get out to get away from the boogeyman. But he was a great running partner and who knows he might have defended me. TW
 

Henderson

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Messages
1,112
Reaction score
8
Location
Ashland, PA, USA
TigerWoman said:
I certainly have been working on it from day one. But now with some education, I have a better idea of what to do. We have alot of work to do.

And therein lies the key to responsible dog ownership. I only wish more people took your view, TW.
 

Paul B

3rd Black Belt
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
942
Reaction score
13
Location
Northwest Indiana
TigerWoman said:
My now, 7 lb. poodle pup has an aggressive streak which I have to nip in the bud. He has gotten ahold of the Culligan's guy jean. He has gone after the mailman, the plumber, the electrician and all of my son's friends. No bites yet. He would lunge toward all the dogs on our walks but I have been putting him into sits and gotten inbetween. My 5th poodle and he's not like any of my others, nor like his mama. So, maybe he has some breeding genetics for aggression. I certainly have been working on it from day one. But now with some education, I have a better idea of what to do. We have alot of work to do. I don't think it takes just a mean owner to have an aggressive dog as this is one of the most pampered dogs on this planet. I also had a German Shepherd who was a pussycat. He was professionally tested and failed miserably. Wanted to climb the wall to get out to get away from the boogeyman. But he was a great running partner and who knows he might have defended me. TW

Good work. Taking charge is the first step in reeling in that aggression. It sounds very much like territorial-based aggression and the message needs to be sent in no uncertain terms that it is YOU who are in charge. Sometimes "pampering" does as much harm as good,though..and people let the dog have "Alpha" position..bad news.

It's funny in the sense that in the smaller breeds there isn't as much concern for breeding aggression in or out of the line..and in the end you have a snarling poodle or cocker spaniel or rat terrier,etc..which is just as much a problem as it would be in a larger breed. Kudo's for stepping up,TW.
 

Robert Lee

Brown Belt
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
425
Reaction score
7
Dogs like other pets a person should look into the thought Do they have the time needed to care for it and spend time with it. But still any dog can change it can just not like a person and bite. And breeds that are more prone to will more often do so around strange people. A person should never keep a dog if they do not have a place that keeps it safe and where it can noit get to other people. Never let it rome free with the exception of country liveing. Dogs are no different then people what you see as gentle when its not in your sight it can get mean. You may not see it so you may think its not a mean dog. to others I still think the pit bull should be bred different to help insure it will not harm children at least one time a year In my state you here that a pit attcked and either killed or injuryed a small child very badly The state has looked into passing a owners libilty law where the owners MUST keep there pit behind a fully enclosed 6 foot tall double fence.And carry at least a 200,000 dollar insurance policy. It has not been approved But if you look being a dog owner is no different then having a child. You have to take care and treat it right and you are responsible if and when it ever bites any person. I am not afraid of any dog breed at all. But I know I would never have certion breeds and live near small children or have small children around them. I believe the same for cat owners it seems most cat owners think it is fine to let there cat roam not all but there sure is alot of people that think a cat can can just run free when they let it out. They kill birds and other smal animals. dig through the trash. And should not beallowed to roam free. Most cities have a law stating cats are not allowed to run free But they do not enforce it like they do on dogs.
 

OUMoose

Trying to find my place
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Messages
1,566
Reaction score
24
Jade Tigress said:
One more thing I just thought of....and I don't know if this is a good idea or not so chime in with your thoughts.
But...what about buying some really yummy treats and tossing them to the dogs whenever you see them...whether they are leashed or not...and maybe they would come to associate you with good things and not be aggressive toward you. ???
Sounds like a good idea, but knowing my luck the dog would have a food allergy or something, and the treat would put it into shock. The owner would come out and sue me since she would say I tried to kill his/her animal. :p

I think in the case of dogs, avoidance and awareness would be the best tools.
 
OP
C

Calm Intention

Orange Belt
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
89
Reaction score
10
I appreciate all the responses, and although some have mentioned how the owners treatment of the dog being a factor in their temperment, and also some of the other breeds with nasty dispositions, I really don't know if I should fear a poodle as I might a Pit.
Like, a Pit has that 1,800 lb. jaw pressure, the 'bus proof' skull, musculature that would please Vince McMahon and the W.W.F., etc.

Other than singing sweet lullabyes while telling the loose Pit that his mother was a real saint and his father a gentleman(hey, it may confuse him:rolleyes: ),, I like the jacket over his head, the rack of beef hidden in my breast pocket, and Mike Tyson at age 22(with the glare in his eye).
 

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
You do have to decide, eventually, how you want to live your life, and how you want to handle fear and intimidation.

Sure, Pit Bulls have a more athletic disposition then most dogs, and therefore COULD be more dangerous.

However, to fear Pit Bulls because of their physicality would be just as irrational as fearing a person because they were really big, or really athletic.

I personally am not going to cringe or cower or be really worried every time I run into someone bigger/stronger/faster then me. I will always be aware and have my self-defense plan in order, regardless of who I am dealing with. I also, hate to bring it up, but have a level of optimism and trust in a higher power, and believe that as long as I am taking personal responsability for my own self-defense and that of my family and community, then it'll all work out in the end. Because of all of this, I don't live in fear of anyone.

The same ideas hold true with animals of any kind, not just dogs. You take the precautions and responsability for yourself to not be careless, and you have nothing to fear. It doesn't matter if it is a Pit, a Crock, or a bear. So, you live your life with some level of serenity.

So, I guess it is all up to the individual as to how one wants to live his life; with serenity and optimism or fear and discomfort. It's all up to each of us, I guess....

Paul Janulis
 
Top